Hello, Suntou, the problem is, the members of the SIC, as demonstrated
by Ousman's quoet, are *in* politics!  It would be different if they
just said nothing or just didn't comment, but they are making
statements, referring to "president Jameh's directives", so if that's
not getting involved in politics, I don't know what is.  I was also
reminded of the statement by Banding Drammeh regarding the murdered
school children of April 10-11 that they should have "behaved
themselves better", as if he was blaming them for being coldly
murdered!  So please don't talk to me about "them not getting involved
in politics".  Whatever!

You also seem to contradcit yourself by saying that they shouldn't
comment on Jammeh's actions because it would get them arrested (and
what kinda excuse is that?).  And then later on saying that they
*should* "do more to advise Yahya"?  So which is it?  If they
shouldn't advise or "castigate" Yahya for fear of arrest or reprisal
from Yahya, then how should they advise him?  Using Hikma and wisdom
is one thing, and a laudable approach, but we're talking about a guy
who's murdered people in cold blood, supervised the killing of
innocent people, has made The Gambia the laughing-stock of the rest of
the world!  What happened to speaking the truth even if it's against
our own kin?

I'm sorry, Suntou, I feel you're making too many excuses for the
so-called religious leaders in The Gambia!  They're not using hikma
and wisdom, they're seemingly being selfish because they want the
coveted position of being a member of the SIC, and they know if they
speak out too harshly, then Jameh will boot them out, so hikma and
wisdom my foot!   Hikma and wisdom doesn't have anything to do with
it!  And as far as those speaking out not getting any coverage, you
still haven't told me the who, what, where, etc., and if they wanted
to speak out, evenif the local media isn't going to let them, there
are as of now a prolieration of online Gambian media that can get
their voice out there, so there is no excuse!

Sometimes I wonder what kind of "Islam" I converted to!  You've got
people running around saying we should make excuses for so-called
religious leaders who state that the students deserved to be killed
because they didn't "behave themselves better", sit by and watch
Jammeh use the Qur'an and Islam in the awful way that he does, and
then make use of a tradition of visiting Jammeh in the Eid days (and
yes I know this tradition went back to Jawara and that wasn't the
point anyway), but they use the time to ask for more vehicles instead
of making use of the time to admonish Jammeh for his behavior!


It would have been one thing if the "scholars" had stayed out of it,
but clearly they have not!  And in this case, they *should* speak out
against Jammeh, instead of going around campaigning for him and
telling people to vote for him because "God put him there".

This is one situation that I thank God that I knew of Islam before I
really knew the Muslims, because if I didn't, I'd think that Islam
tolerates this sorta thing!  And it doesn't!  Regarding Somalia, I
don't know what happened there, but what does it have to do with our
discussion?

We're talking about The Gambia, not Somalia, totally different set of
circumstances, methinks.

Ginny



On 12/6/07, Ousman Ceesay <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Suntou,
>
> What is troubling to most of us on this issue is the authoritarian way the
> SIC is trying to operate. Take this sentence from their press release for
> instance:
>
> "According to the release presidential directives have       earlier been
> issued to the effect that there should be no       publication or radio
> programmes in Islamic matters without       the approval of the council."
>
> So the SIC armed with a presidential directive is demanding that citizens of
> a secular nation get permission from them before exercising what is
> purportedly an act between them and their God.
>
> Ginny is right to bring up the hypocrisy factor. Yahya is using the Quran in
> his AIDS cure madness. If you watch the video, you will see him rubbing some
> kind of ointment on a semi-nude woman with one hand, while holding the Quran
> in the other.Did you hear a word from Bading Drammeh on that issue? However,
> when it comes to the Ahmadis translating the Quran and announcing it's
> availability...well how dare they? The president said nobody in the Gambia
> can do that without Bading and his mighty Supreme council.
>
> Meanwhile we have civil rights activist like yourself (Suntou) letting your
> theological disagreement with the Ahmadis cloud your judgment in a blatant
> case of religious intolerance.
>
>
> SUNTOU TOURAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Ginny,sorry for the misspelling
> of your name ,it was an over-site.Ginny if you are conversant with the
> advice of the messenger of Islam concerning scholars dealing with rulers you
> will realise that the sic did not do any thing wrong by not openly
> confronting our mad president.
>
>   Think back to many years ago what happen in Somalia when scholars try to
> intervene in matters of politics.many scholars were killed by the communist
> regime in power and since then somalia never have any respite.again when
> scholars try to get involve it will the same media people who will start
> banging on about our coveted secularism . In our day and age Islam is label
> with all sorts of names and you want yahya to join that bandwagon? if imam
> fatty for instance start using his sermons to castigate yahya ,he will be
> locked up like hydara was locked up.did you heard about Imam Hydara of
> airport mosque ? Scholars most use Hikma or wisdom in dealing with sitting
> leaders.we have politicians who can challenge the president using the
> secular constitutions of our country ,no problem.to accuse an imam or
> scholar of being a T today is very easy .so yes members of the SIC need to
> do more when it comes to advising yahya ,but since when did yahya start
> listening to any one? yahya knows
>  he is not suppose do what he is doing .
>
>   on subject of visiting the president in state house on days of eid,that
> was a tradition from the days of jawara .the Christan's too visit the
> president .
> many scholars don't get media attention because that is not news,but the
> press release was a news item that is why it is being made a meal out of.our
> journalist try to distant them self from religious affairs as much as they
> possably can ,we are a secular country they say .but in this issue ,human
> Rights ,religious rights,constitutional issue,secularism and the rest of the
> Geneva conventions comes into play.the papers can write what they want on
> this one and they will get an audience.
> Ginny Quick  wrote:
>   Hello, Suntou, OK, now if members of the SIC are seen openly visiting
> Jammeh for occasions like Eid, etc., and they don't take the
> opportunity to advise him on things he is doing wrong (like using
> Islam as a prop in his "ability to cure HIV/AIDS", just to name one
> example), not to mention possibly even helping him in all of htis!
> And to my knowledge, I've not seen any member of the Supreme Islamic
> Counsel speaking out against Jammeh! Yet at the same time, they want
> to excert some kind of "authority" in who and who doesn't publish
> translations of the Qur'an and other Islamic texts, I have to conclude
> that they prefer to use sleective authority!
>
> Now if individual members of the council are speaking out against
> Jammeh, that can only be a good thing, obviously, however I'm not
> aware of it!
>
>
> So to my mind I'm not "generalizing" as I am not aware of anyone
> "speaking out", the comment you alluded to was made by someone
> quietly, while the SIC's latest pronouncements are all over the media,
> which leaves me with the impression that while some members of the
> council probably do speak out against Jammeh, they'd rather do it
> quietly, so as not to hurt their position. I mean, if Jammeh controls
> all of the appoints right down to the local government councils now,
> who's to say he can't just "appoint" people to this council?
>
> And when I'm referring to the "council" I'm referring to the whole
> council, and when the leader of hte council speaks out, I gather that
> he's representing *all* of the council, and if he is not, then the
> members who disagree with him need to voice that and not in the way of
> haivng others speak for htem. In your example, you did not give a
> name, a time, or a place, the person you referred to, as far as making
> any public statements, has not done so! It's only an anecdotal
> statement of "well I know someone who's a member of the council who
> doesn't support Jammeh". That is all well and good, but when you have
> the "leader" of the SIC making a statement, I would assume that he is
> speaking for the whole concil, unless there is antoher public
> statement to the contrary!
>
> BTW, I love how my name gets mis-spelled even though it's right there
> in the header of my message, but anyway.
>
> Your points are well-taken, but I am not in total agreement iwth them.
>
> Ginny
>
>
>
> On 12/6/07, SUNTOU TOURAY wrote:
> > HARUNA,THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE.the Christan's have there
> > council that over see the interest of the Gambian Christians and the
> Muslims
> > also have there own council.the ahamadiya should apply for there own
> council
> > to represent them in matters like this.but they don't wish to do that
> ,they
> > intend to operate like a green snake on a green grass .if they so wish to
> be
> > under there own command the constitution allows them that privilege.let
> them
> > apply for there own authority which will not inter-fare with the rest of
> the
> > non-ahamadiya followers.
> > as for Genny ,the usual accusation at sic is mostly wrong allegations.no
> > one is perfect.if some members approve jammeh ,there are many who openly
> > speak against him and his military machinery.lets not discredit our
> scholars
> > for political point.in-fact ,during my stay in the Gambia recently ,a
> > scholar was ask to refrain from mentioning politics but his answer was
> ''GOD
> > DON'T CARE WHO THE RULER IS ,SINCE THAT RULER HIMSELF IS SUBJECT TO GOD'S
> > RULE ''.he also made a great speech against the military .he advice them
> to
> > stop harassing fellow citizens and any such maltreatment of human beings
> > warrant god's wrath.so not all scholars are genuine but not all of us are
> > genuine also.this man is called Bakawsu Fofana .his samon can be access on
> > www.iladinolong.com .
> >
> > Haruna Darbo wrote:
> > Ladies & Gentlemen, Colleagues,
> >
> > I have followed the discussion on the apparent disagreement between the
> > Supreme Islamic Council and the Ahmadiyya for the latter's translation of
> > the
> > Qur'an into some of our local languages. I must say I was both
> disappointed
> > and
> > confounded in some of the submissions.
> >
> > In my opinion, The Ahmadiyya are a missionary group like the Islamic
> Council
> > and the Christian council. They all vie for the spiritual life of
> Gambians.
> > Since Gambia is not an Islamic republic, this matter seems to me a public
> > policy conundrum than anything else. Citizens must not war over a public
> > policy
> > mistake. The policy makers ought to make the policy right and consider the
> > debilitating effect of bad policy decisions on the citizenry.
> >
> > 1. The Islamic Council must not be given the title "The Supreme Islamic
> > Council".
> >
> > 2. The Ahmadiyya, like the Christian Brotherhood, and their governing
> > councils must never come under the purview of the Islamic Council without
> > their
> > acquiescence, and if I have any common sense at all, they will never, and
> > rightfully so.
> >
> > 3. To foster religious fraternity and harmony, A "Council on Religion"
> ought
> > to be created with equal representatives from all religions, even the
> > religions founded or to be founded by Gambians.
> >
> > 4. Gambia is a nation of religious tolerance and freedom of religion. It
> is
> > a bad idea to feign preference for Islam. I am a muslim and I prefer the
> > Islamic Lifestyle. However, to be a true muslim, I must recognize the
> > freedoms of
> > people of other faiths. Someone accepted the Ahmadiyya and Christian
> > brotherhoods as missionaries in Gambia. They have done a lot of selfless
> > good. They
> > do not force anyone to convert. The Islamic brotherhood must follow the
> > example of these other religions and remain honest to the divine spirit.
> It
> > is not
> > decided that Islam is the best religion for anyone's salvation. If we give
> > the Islamic Council free reign over our spiritual lives at the expense of
> > other
> > spiritual nourishment, we will live to regret it and die to proceed to
> > hellfire.
> >
> > Laa Hawala walaa khuwwata, Illa Billaah, Li-Aliyyul Atheem.
> >
> > Haroun Masoud. MQDT Darbo. Al Mutawakkil. If Islam is the best religion
> for
> > salvation, I would like Allah, subhaanahu wa-ta aala, to take my life
> before
> > I awake in the morn.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Haroun Masoud
> >
> >
> >
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