Greetings all and Ramadan Mubarak to everyone (no matter when you decide to start).

I think I have to side with Jabou on this one...  We're not just talking about a new way of doing things, i.e., using a loud speaker, or slaughtering meat mechanically or by hand.  As long as the requirements of slaughtering that animal, etc., are met, etc...  But what is being suggested by *solely* relying on astronomical calculations for determining the basis for the starting and ending of Islamic months is the leaving of a strongly confirmed Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him), in the name of "modernity" or "not being backward".  And I, personally, don't feel comfortable with that decision...  I don't disagree that atronomy can't be used in aiding us in actually physically sighitng the new crescent, i.e., knowing when the new moon is born, and thus when to go out and sight the new moon, but just not going out to sight the moon at all?  

And this idea that we just knew nothing about astronomy "back then" has been shown to be incorrect, I'll need to find the article that explores this issue.  

Also is the below quote necessary?


"remember when the microphone or loud speakers fist came about abot 60
years ago many indo pak muslims also refused to use them because it
was not used
in the time of the prophet (pbuh) and not sunnah"

Why single on the Indo-Pak community?  Surely they weren't the only group of Muslims to be nervous about new things like loud speakers, etc.  


Personally, I have found the position I'm most comfortable with, and I am tired of this debate!  From a fiqh / jurisprudential perspective, there can be multiple positions / opinions on a given issue, and they *all* could be right, so let's just let it go and stop accusing those who follow a different position than you, or who feel differently about the issue as being "backward" or "oh just those Indo-Pak" people.  I'm personally offended that an ethnic group, a whole group of peole, mind you, is being singled out for ridicul and scorn, accused of "being backward", because they were reticent about adopting new technologies.  


I think this is understandable, if something new comes along, we, as Muslims, or at least the knowledgeable and scholarly among us, need to examine if whatever it is that has come along goes against our principles or not.  And if it doesn't, we should leave it.  If some Muslims were nervous about using loud speakers, why should that be laughed at?  Perhaps that would seem fanatical now, but imagine how it seemed to go from not haivng electricity, or loud speakers, or instanteous modes of communication.


You know, I'm just tired of this ridiculing, and laughing at, and scorning of others who hold a perfectly valid legal opinion, Islamically, but someone doesn't like it, so they want to call others "backward" "not modern", etc.  And insert "Arab", "black", "African", where you inserted "indo-Pak", how does that sound?


For my part, I'm following a local sighting within North America, Inshallah, it will be sighted tonight but if it is not, I'm comfortable with that, too.  I'm not going to go into the "whys" the fiqh of it, etc., etc. But I've aksed knowledgeable people that I trust on this issue, and I'm going iwth the decision that I'm most comfortable with.  However, I respect that others have another perfectly legtimate opinoin that they follow, so I'll leave that alone.


Again, ramadan mubarak to everyone.

Ginny




On 9/12/07, SUNTOU TOURAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Jabou and Habib ,thanks for the enlighten discussions .God bless.
>
> Habib Ghanim <[log in to unmask]> wrote:  The following table lists the
> Gregorian dates of New Year, the beginning of Ramadan, the date of Eid
> al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha, according to the Ummal-Qura.
>
>
>
>
>
> Year
>
> 1 Muharram
>
> 1 Ramadan
>
> 1 Shawwal
>
> 10 Dhul-Hijja
>
>
> 1425
>
> 21 Feb 2004 Sa
>
> 15 Oct 2004 Fr
>
> Nov 2004
>
> 21 Jan 2005 Fr
>
>
> 1426
>
> 10 Feb 2005 Th
>
> 4 Oct 2005 Tu
>
> 3 Nov 2005
>
> 10 Jan 2006Tu
>
>
> 1427
>
> 31 Jan 2006 Tu
>
> 24 Sep 2006 Su
>
> 23 Oct 2006
>
> 31 Dec 2006 Su
>
>
> 1428
>
> 20 Jan 2007 Sa
>
> 13 Sep 2007 Th
>
> 13 Oct 2007
>
> 20 Dec 2007 Th
>
>
> 1429
>
> 10 Jan 2008 Th
>
> 1 Sep 2008 Mo
>
> 1 Oct 2008
>
> 8 Dec 2008 Mo
>
>
> 1430
>
> 29 Dec 2008 Mo
>
> 22 Aug 2009
>
> 20 Sep 2009
>
> 27 Nov 2009 Fr
>
>
> 1431
>
> 18 Dec 2009 Fr
>
> 11 Aug 2010
>
> 10 Sep 2010
>
> 16 Nov 2010Tu
> plan your holidays now without headaches
>
> > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:08:29 -0400> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re:
> first ramadam to be on thursday> To: [log in to unmask]> > >
> Brother Habib,> > Thanks.> As I mentioned, I have no problem with the choice
> of Makkah as the point of > reference for the moon sightings. Infact, I
> think that it is something > befitting that should have been done long ago
> because it is a point of reference for > the Ummah.> The slaughtering en
> masse also makes sense because the pronouncement of > Allah's (SWT) name is
> what matters there so no major departures from the sunnah.> Loud speakers
> make sense as aids to better conveyance of what is being said.> Therefore,
> opposition to these above mentioned items is a bit fanatical.> However, when
> it comes to the actual sighting of the moon with the naked > eye, that is
> the sunnah of the Prophet and even the Qu'ran mentions that. > Deciding to
> depend on mathematical and astronomical calculations alone without > seeing
> the actual moon
>  crescent is another matter altogether. Innovation I say.> We already know
> that in the lunar calendar we follow in Islam, some months > are 30 days and
> some are 29, and the Prophet told us that during his time. > During Ramadan,
> actually sighting the moon is what determines if we fast 29 days > or 30
> days.> I personally think that it is a dangerous departure.> Instead, what
> needed to be done was to have the Ummah World-wide defer to > the Makkans
> whenever they inform us that the moon has been sighted over there > with the
> naked eye and go with that as opposed to going with calculations. > I
> remember that during the time that the late Serigne Modou Lamin Bah was >
> imam of Banjul, if the moon was sighted in Makkah, he would make the
> decision to > go along with that schedule.> > May Allah guide the Ummah to
> the straight path and protect us from Bi'da.> May He inspire and help us to
> keep our faith pure.> > Please remember us, the rest of our compatriots and
> the Ummah in your >
>  prayers.> > wassalaam,> Jabou> > In a message dated 9/11/2007 10:46:51 P.M.
> Central Daylight Time, > [log in to unmask] writes:> > Balal na la Ahha> yes
> indeed sister jabou> for several months since jan 2007 all the muslim
> scholars that are > astronomers and mathematicians met with some religious
> scholars in europe , south asia > and in the usa plus experts from Africa (
> capetown and cairo) to finalize > this method> > the key is very simple and
> strategic one location was selected and which > city better than mekkah> so
> when the new moon is born ( the know the exact time to the seconds ) in >
> mekkah area alone before sunset then we start the new lunar month the >
> following day but when the new moon is born after sunset then the next day
> is the > first day- reasoning is that since each month is exactly 29.5 (and
> half day) > so it means some months will be 30 days and some 29 only> there
> is no half day - so it makes sense and yes it has been accepted by > the
> scholars> > >
>  remember when the microphone or loud speakers fist came about abot 60 years
> > ago many indo pak muslims also refused to use them because it was not used
> in > the time of the prophet (pbuh) and not sunnah > well with technonogy
> and science advances Imams now use these loudspeakers > to give khutbas to
> big crowds of worshippers so all can hear him deliver > his speech. and
> there is no debate on this matter any more with the cell phones > and land
> lines -telephones have sms /ims , cameras and even videos now to > almost
> mini computers > > we have the same issues with mechanical slaughter of
> chickens versus hand > slaughter - now machine slaughtered chickens are
> allowed as long as they are > supervised properly to avoid mistakes and the
> tasmiah is said by the muslim > supervisors during the process> > a classic
> example used was that during the prophets time people performed > pilgrimage
> to mekkah on horses and camels now we us airoplanes and cars and > boats. >
> > best regards
>  to y'all in the south and have a blessed month of Ramadan> Hajj Habib> > >
> > > Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:35:50 -0400> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject:
> Re: > first ramadam to be on thursday> To: [log in to unmask]> >
> Habib,> > > Balal na la, balal ma ahhah.> > Astronomical calculations
> instead of > actually sighting the moon? I have no issues with the rest of
> the Islamic World > going along with the Makkans sighting of the moon as the
> start and end of > Ramadan, but is the new standard of going with
> astronomical calculations sunnah?> > > Jabou> > > > -----Original
> Message-----> From: Habib Ghanim > > To: [log in to unmask]> Sent:
> Tue, 11 Sep 2007 8:21 pm> > Subject: Re: first ramadam to be on thursday> >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks sister > Jabou > thank God the whole universe this
> year starts on the same day ie 13 th > sept and > will celebrate eid on 13
> th october 2007> from now on we will all > noy look for the new cresent moon
> as the new global > standard
>  will use makkah > as the target for the whole world and now based on >
> astronomical and > mathematical calculations only > we know when eid will
> fall for 5 years now without > complains ( except the > bangladashis and
> indo pakistanis) inshallah this is > a good move to unify the > ummah> >
> balal ma ahhah > may we meet next years > ramadan in good health inshallah>
> habib Diab ghanim> > > > > Date: Tue, 11 > Sep 2007 20:01:34 -0400> From:
> [log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: > first ramadam to > be on thursday> To:
> [log in to unmask]> > Ramadaan > Mubarak.> May > Allah (SWT) accept
> our fasting and forgive us our sins.> > Jabou > Joh> > > > > > > > > >
> -----Original Message-----> From: SUNTOU TOURAY > > > To:
> [log in to unmask]> Sent: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 > 1:19 pm> > Subject:
> first ramadam to be on thursday> > > > > > > > > > > the main > > islamic
> news chanel in U.k announce that ramadan will comence on > thursday the > >
> 13th of september.> i wish every body a
>  blessed ramadan. i am sure baba and > some > sanyang kunda > folks will be
> happy that we will wait for another day > to start > the fast .not >
> forgeting the darboe kunda crew .saloum,haruna and > lj darboe > .God bless
> ,guys.> suntou.> > >
> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤> > To
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