Musa,
If PDOIS's main purpose is to educate Gambians about democracy and they
do not care how long it takes or how many are educated in their life
time, then I have no case to make. They are perfectly entitled to do as
they please and please forgive me for continuing this rambling. However
if there exist a higher purpose such as ruling the country by the ballot
box, then there remain a lot of convincing to be done.
I believe it is wrong to suggest that Gambian people do not know
better. They, like any other are being practical. They need the bread
and butter and will do whatever it takes to secure that. Just like many
of us dropping out of college to work at the MacDonalds of this world,
just because we need roof over our heads and bread on the table. That
does not mean that we are unaware of the longterm dangers of not going
to college. Also this thing on tribal politics in today's Gambia is a
little overblown. The APRC by its composition is not based on tribe.
Infact I would venture to say that the the APRC support base is broader
than either NRP or UDP. Yes, they exploit tribal issues just like the
other two I mentioned.
Father Mose, let at some of your statements;
"The reality is that people are not winning elections, or loosing elections base on their party message, and this will continue to happen until we at least adopt the process of building a real democracy in the Gambia. There is no way of measuring the effectiveness of PDOIS, or any political party for that matter in the Gambia base on using election results as a base because that it self is flawed. "
On the contrary there is a way to measure effectiveness. The problem is
on deciding what you want to measure. If , PDOIS's participation in
national election is any indication of their desire to rule the country
then election results is the ultimate measure of their effectiveness.
With the process flawed, we still have the opposition winning 30%.
Unfortunately PDOIS's share of that vote is not impressive.
"The PDOIS message can be put in this way: let us create an environment where Gambians will take ownership of their own destiny."
If we take this as official PDOIS line then those who care must help
them assess how far they have come and what needs to be done.
"As long as we continue to have some among us impose their own will onto us, you will expect to see the suffering of people in our country, and there is nothing any message can do to bring about immediate change."
If we go by this, then we should ask brother Halifa and team to take
early retirement since Dr. J intends to be around for another 30yrs!
I am not trying to be dis-respectful to brother Halifa and team but I
sincerely believe that, after all the difficulties they faced over the
last 20 yrs, being misunderstood or mis-represented by even one person
is one too many. If that happens as confirmed by brother Halifa, then
that makes it even more important for us to ask WHY?
Malanding Jaiteh
Musa Jeng wrote:
>Suntou:
>
>I think raising issues about PDOIS' effectiveness, and whether they have anything to show for over the years is indeed a genuine question. Now, you are making this argument base on the fact that you are using election results to judge the effectiveness of PDOIS's message and whether Gambians are actually buying into the message. Now election results in the Gambia as a barometer can only be used in this case, if there is a democratic environment where Gambians are at least free to choose. Now, allow me to bring in another scenario, if PDOIS in the past twenty five years decided to take arms with mercenaries and took over the government of the Gambia, of course with the justification of putting the rule of law in place, I have no doubt they will be winning elections all over the place. Will that then suffice as an indication that the PDOIS message is getting through.
>
>The reality is that people are not winning elections, or loosing elections base on their party message, and this will continue to happen until we at least adopt the process of building a real democracy in the Gambia. There is no way of measuring the effectiveness of PDOIS, or any political party for that matter in the Gambia base on using election results as a base because that it self is flawed. The PDOIS message can be put in this way: let us create an environment where Gambians will take ownership of their own destiny. That has not happen because few among us are willing to use other methods outside of the rules of any descent civilization. As long as we continue to have some among us impose their own will onto us, you will expect to see the suffering of people in our country, and there is nothing any message can do to bring about immediate change. But for me, I will continue to respect people who are willing and committed to stay on message by fighting and reminding people th
>eir rights and how to remove the chains of oppression.
>
>
>
>
>Musa Jeng
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
>From: SUNTOU TOURAY <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>>our sedia from wulli was able to win three elections due to the effectiveness of
>>youth civic education. the aprc regime split up wulli but the area that sedia
>>choose to contest for where well aware of the tricks of aprc ,the youths stood
>>firm and fullfil their commitment to vote pdios .civic education can work if
>>properly delivered.
>>
>>Lamin Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Suntou:
>>
>>Many thanks for elucidating your understanding of religion and how it may
>>legitimately interface with public life.
>>
>>I respect those views and do not wish to cause further annoyance by pursuing a
>>discussion not amenable to conclusive settlement.
>>
>>
>>
>>LJDarbo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>SUNTOU TOURAY wrote:
>>Brother lamin ,ahjarama mowdo .to start with ,i will say the topic at hand is
>>why pdois is still misunderstood after more than a decade of being in existence
>>? this is the topic ,but every THING been equal you masterfully claim that i am
>>a religious zealot .i will want you to explain to me what a zealot means in
>>terms of religion .
>>
>>i don't hide my feelings to any one in terms of my love for Islam and its
>>benefit to humanity .i will never under any circumstance claim to wish a
>>non-beleiver ruling over me .
>>i will use the much use terminology by Gay right campaigners ,which ,i can
>>tolerate a non-beleiver but i cannot accept them as equal to a believer .Gays
>>want straight people to take them as equals and accept them ,but there is an
>>ocean of difference between tolerating and accepting some one .
>>i believe 100% in the teachings of Islam and in that vain ,the highest
>>constitution and rule book of all Muslims across the universe clearly states
>>that '' a believer and unbeliever cannot be equal'' in the eye of our maker ,so
>>i take that line.
>>
>>in terms of secular democracy and politics ,yes every Gambian regardless of the
>>person's faith can aspire to become the head of state ,that is his/her
>>constitutional right. i cannot object to that ,but my personal choice will of
>>course be a believer rule me rather than an unbeliever .this is a sensitive area
>>so i will leave it to that .
>>
>>if today we choose to take religion as a private matter ,and we take politics as
>>a communal matter ,aren't we being hypocritical here fellas .from the most
>>advance nations on earth to the very less developed country ,politicians use
>>religion as tool to both win votes and as a guide to decide moral issues for
>>them.so if any one claim ,i don't take religion seriously ,i suntou will not
>>believe you .
>>
>>as human beings we judge each other base of some set rules and bench marks .from
>>journalist to lawyers ,judges,heads of states ,bankers,police officers,military
>>officers,ministers,councillors etc .what do we use to judge them or held them to
>>account ?
>>
>>this measures whatever they may be are different to different people .for
>>example ,i see many journalist brothers here lambasting the mode of freedom news
>>papers reporting ,what tool do they use to know that ,that paper is towing the
>>line ?
>>again many of us take issue with our head of state regularly as a result of the
>>ways he treat our fellow citizens ,we call him names .what measures are we using
>>again to held him to account ?
>>i can go on and on about us exposing the faults of others .what i am trying to
>>explain is this ,each and every profession has its own set rules and guide line
>>,if any one within that profession or trade violate that rules and regulations
>>he/she is brought to task .the noble thing for every profession is for there to
>>be rules and fundamental set principles that individuals most follow.
>>these fundamental principles will be use as checks and balances for the
>>different layers of employees and staff .we can for example say ,that the daily
>>observer news paper is bias ,why and how can we tell ? well ,we have brothers in
>>the news business ,they are experts in the field and for that matter they tell
>>us ,you see that paper is not reporting accurate news ,and we the readers can
>>either believe or disbelieve in the judgement .
>>again we can tell if our president is corrupt ,how is this so ,well we have
>>brothers and sisters in politics and we also have journalist that can unearth
>>for us the life style of our leader ,with this information's ,we can soundly say
>>our leader is living out of his means .he is corrupt.
>>these are all possible because there are fundamental principles that are in
>>place and any violation to those principles will lead to prosecutions.
>>similarly ,religion whatever religion that may be have its own fundamental
>>principles ,if one continue to make judgement outside those fundamental rules
>>,you are counting yourself out that religion. as they say ignorant of the law is
>>not an excuse .
>>
>>that also bring me to ask my journalist brothers and sister here , WHEN CAN A
>>NEWS PAPER BE LIABLE FOR A CONTEMPT OF COURT ? i am currently reading a book
>>dealing with bungles in the media business .
>>
>>haruna thanks for the golf news .yeah i mean soccer .i hate that word.
>>
>>Lamin Darbo wrote:
>>Haruna:
>>
>>I guess a formal welcome to GAMBIA-L is in order.
>>
>>You do have a pretty unique conversational style, and I must admit your pieces
>>have the capacity to both amuse and educate. And so I'm glad to be reading you
>>on GAMBIA-L.
>>
>>Clearly, your complaints about PDOIS are not practically addressable, and having
>>witnessed prior performances of yours on the matter, it appears that your views
>>are set in stone. Under the circumstances, it is probably prudent to decline the
>>invitation to convince you about PDOIS.
>>
>>I am happy to have persuaded Malanding despite your belated attempt to muddy the
>>waters. And neither Suntou, nor myself, considers PDOIS as a communist outfit.
>>There appears to be some religious zealotry in Suntou if his recent postings on
>>Ahmadiyya's are anything to go by. In light of the monumental task facing us as
>>a nation, what with the illegal arrests, detentions, torture, and unexplained
>>disappearances and deaths, I am not the least concerned about which religion a
>>fellow Gambian affiliates with. I am happy to have a nonbeliever for President
>>if the person is committed to the rule of law.
>>
>>I should content myself by informing you that PDOIS is not only the oldest
>>functional party in Gambia, but also the only party whose leadership are invited
>>to share their views about politics with fellow citizens. In a two-way free and
>>fair electoral contest under a governance system grounded in the rule of law,
>>PDOIS of today has the ability to defeat the APRC nationally. The dominance of
>>the PPP, and now the APRC, has more to do with their corrupt governance and
>>lawless elections than acceptance by the people, and with your acumen, I thought
>>appreciating this would be obvious.
>>
>>As you have clearly made up your mind, I do not think you are realistically open
>>to persuasion about PDOIS obvious merits.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>LJDarbo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Haruna Darbo wrote:
>>Lamin,
>>How are you? I am glad you are here for I enjoy your company and indeed hold
>>you in high esteem. On rare occasions, your emotions overwhelm your
>>intellect and an opportunity arises for us to share differing views. This is
>>such an
>>occasion.
>>
>>"Malanding: Remember Saints in the mid- to late-70s? When other members of
>>your class, including myself, were struggling with ordinary maths, a select
>>group of you were grappling with the stupefying concepts of Additional
>>Mathematics under the tutelage of Father Flynn. If not him, then Father
>>somebody, but
>>I think it was Father Flynn. After Saints, I stayed away from the
>>mathematical sciences and wouldn't know how to tackle metric concepts especially
>>in
>>relation to socio-political questions." JDAM
>>
>>Thanx for the reminiscence, I think it was father Flynn. I remmember him
>>fondly. It is however unfortunate Lamin for an honourable citizen like yourself
>>to not appreciate the value of metrics or the actuarial sciences especially
>>in juridical decision-making. I know you're probably joking but our friend
>>Malandikukeh asked a very significant question that stood to accrue enormous
>>value for PDOIS were you to have taken it seriously. Consider that by metrics he
>>meant yardstick as opposed to derivatives, limits and continuity. The
>>problem you have created for yourself is that you have used voluminous metrics
>>and
>>actuarial considerations in your juridical decisions, and more importantly in
>>assessing the worth or lack thereof, of Jawara's thirty some odd years of
>>leadership to conclude that it was devoid of any meaningful achievement. You
>>also obviously must have considered metrics in certifying the ordainment of the
>>1994 coup and in assessing the worth or value of Yahya's leadership in
>>comparison to a potential PDOIS leadership. I find it disingenuous (for want of
>>more benign adjective) therefore to retire ever so discretely from an
>>assessment of PDOIS' worth or lack thereof spanning both the PPP and Yahya. I
>>was so
>>looking forward to a stellar performance and possibly earning PDOIS new
>>converts. I share that simple statistics such as mean mode and median would do
>>the
>>trick. In fact, the use of add-math may further blur your analysis in this
>>area.
>>
>>"Although another outsider, I am at least aware that through its principal
>>information organ - FOROYAA - PDOIS has contributed tremendously to awakening
>>and nurturing the political consciousness of Gambians."
>>
>>I disagree with you here Lamin. As you intimated, Foroyaa is a PDOIS party
>>organ. All communist parties have party organs, and like Foroyaa, they help to
>>diseminate the message of the party to the citizenry. I regualrly receive a
>>newsletter from Siemens. The newsletter always teaches me about a new idea but
>>at the end, it shares that I can only yield value from the idea if I
>>purchased a Siemens component. So a party organ such as Foroyaa is a propaganda
>>or
>>advertising organ and to keep your interest in reading it, they cut and paste
>>parts of the Gambia constitution to give the mirage of an educational paper.
>>Although I applaud PDOIS for the vision to establish a party paper. If you
>>say Foroyaa therefore has contributed tremendously in awakening and nurturing
>>the political consciousness of Gambians, you are inadvertently admitting that
>>that political consciousness was already present in Gambians prior to
>>Foroyaa. Since Foroyaa is, by your own admission, a party organ, I understand
>>you to
>>share that PDOIS engages in intellectually engineering acceptance by
>>Gambians. Please convince me otherwise.
>>
>>"It is my understanding that PDOIS has a multi-purpose centre for the
>>proliferation of education, especially in the socio-political area." JDAM.
>>
>>Would you mind sharing with us the name and location of this centre? If it
>>is for the proliferation of education I would presume it is public, easily
>>accessible, and its value assessible.
>>
>>"And the leadership are usually invited by youth-controlled community and
>>civic organisations to give speeches. I have a video of Halifa giving one such
>>speech at Tujereng in Kombo South." JDAM.
>>
>>Lamin, I also can share that Halifa spoke to our Sixth form class at GHS
>>upon invitation, and I enjoyed it thoroughly. To this day however, I cannot
>>recall what he spoke about or what it had to do with our lives. One thing you
>>may
>>want to share with PDOIS is that if over the last two decades, they have
>>given multitudes of speeches and churned out zillions of editions of Foroyaa but
>>are still in the political doldrums, it may be a good idea for them to invite
>>citizens to give speeches at their central bureau in order that they may
>>appreciate the value of what citizens have to say. I don't mean invite PDOIS
>>youth organs but ordinary voting citizens. It could prove useful. I'm usually
>>not in the business of advising political parties and certainly not PDOIS who
>>always know what I'm thinking or what I should think about.
>>
>>"Outside party political functions, I do not recall the leadership of any
>>other political party being invited to share their socio-political views with
>>fellow Gambians." JDAM.
>>
>>And look at their poll records at elections. Lamin, this ought to at least
>>inform a more inclusive strategy for PDOIS as opposed to rely on invitations to
>>speak.
>>
>>"In my view, the reason may be attributable to the fact that in our pre- and
>>post-1994 systems, both the dominant parties have no sensible programmes to
>>sell to Gambians, and hence continue to exploit the easy option of steering
>>national life in darkness." JDAM.
>>
>>You must admit Lamin that given their shortcomings in vision for Gambia,
>>Gambians desire them over PDOIS. Or maybe Gambians still haven't gotten PDOIS'
>>extraordinary and divine message for governance yet.
>>
>>"To preempt a retort of why their relatively insignificant political
>>representation in government, I suggest you search for answers in the atrocious
>>unaccountable systems of PPP and APRC." JDAM.
>>
>>Lamin, Men how can you ask Malandikukeh to search for records that are not
>>there (unaccountable systems). You did not pre-empt the retort of why their
>>relatively insignificant political representation in government. So I will ask
>>retort to you: Why PDOIS' lackluster (insignificant is too extreme for me)
>>performance at the polls over two decades at least?
>>
>>"If you require quantification of the benefits of PDOIS "relentless
>>programme of political education and civic consciousness", I do not have the
>>mathematical wherewithal to do that," JDAM.
>>
>>It would have been very easy to quantify or even qualify the value of PDOIS'
>>relentless programme of educational proliferation if it were there. Lamin,
>>what you confuse with education am afraid is ideological indoctrination under
>>the guise of philanthropic education. I'd like you to engage in a simple
>>poll. That may satisfy Kukeh's query:
>>
>>Get a ballpark figure of Gambians PDOIS educated say last year and share
>>that with us.
>>Then share with us how many of those PDOIS-educated citizens are PDOIS
>>militants or party members or children of PDOIS party members and sympathisers.
>>
>>I guess you know where I'm headed with this. I have some more detailed
>>questions if you'll indulge me. At the end, we will not only be able to quantify
>>but qualify the worth of a PDOIS Relentless CIVIC CONSCIOUSNESS exercise.
>>
>>"but I take it the evidence is obvious in the number of other parties
>>obliterated from the national consciousness with the passage of time. The PPP
>>itself is one such victim, and the party was at the centre of national life for
>>three decades." JDAM.
>>
>>It is terribly unfortunate and counterproductive for PDOIS to keep comparing
>>itself to PPP, a party you admit is as good as dead. If you wish to keep up
>>with growth and life in PDOIS, it may be time to compare it with living
>>organs and organisms. Ironic idn't it? Besides, you were all too happy to
>>partner
>>with the PPP to form NADD just about a year ago Lamin. One exercise that may
>>give you a yardstick is to compare the health of PDOIS under PPP and under
>>APRC and ammend your activities accordingly. I take it PDOIS prefers APRC to the
>>PPP era. I know why but I can't share that. It would cost you $100,000.00 to
>>complement my funds for a research hospital in the place of the state house
>>mosque when I become President of Gambia.
>>
>>Lamin, this is the one area that I think you and I have polarly opposite
>>views on. It is healthy though because I give you the opportunity to convince me
>>that I should support PDOIS as opposed to APRC or UDP/NRP. Trust me if you
>>can convince me, Kukeh and Suntou will be a piece of cake for I will join you
>>in persuading them. You know Suntou is already leaning that way. If he were to
>>lean any further he'd fall into the ditch. A friend of mine told me that it
>>generally gets pitch dark before total darkness. I suppose you guys and gals
>>at PDOIS would say "Darkness usually comes before Minuit". I haven't seen a
>>handful of folk so hopefull about darkness as you PDOIS folk.ll : >>>)!!!
>>Holla back.
>>
>>Haruna.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
>>http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>>
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