Boyy Phil,
         I agree with so much of what you are saying here.  I may be 
wrong, because I was only a kid at the time, but didn't Billy Gram 
get a lot of grief for being so involved with Johnson and 
Nixon?  Anyway, it is true that politics and religion  don't mix 
well.  It is hard to know how exactly to walk the walk, however.  An 
extreme view might be that Christians shouldn't even run for office 
because they will get tainted by the process, but then, where would we be?
         Unfortunately, Israel was a Theocracy and the priests were 
pretty much in charge, so we don't get a great deal of practical 
advice there either.  We're told in Romans 13,  to respect our 
government and here in the U.S. we actually have the privilege  of 
voting to try to affect its direction , but many Christians don't 
even bother to do that.  I think that Dobson said that 20 million 
Christians sat out the 2004 election.  I don't see how that 
helps.  If we have the right to vote, why do we sit home and let the 
non Christians decide who will govern over us?  I suppose that Rick 
Warren's move to get more involved in politics is just a more extreme 
version of my point of view.  I believe that we have a rare 
opportunity to actually affect outcome, to protect the poor and bring 
about justice.  The non-Christian sure isn't going to have a godly 
point of view on that one.    I suppose that, to some, it sounds as 
if those who get political are placing a lot more hope in our 
government than in God.  I personally think thta God has provided a 
rare oportunity to affect government and we are letting it drift away 
like a helium balloon just trusting God to do all the work for us.
         I also whole heartedly agree with you that way too many 
people who call themselves Christians, have no clue what they 
mean.  If they are Christians, they are babies because they do not 
take the time to be in God's word and spend time with Him in 
prayer.  They are easily caught up by the latest fads and they never 
put down roots deep in christ.  If, however, something like ALPHA or 
Rick Warren's writing can be used to bring people in, it provides an 
opportunity for the church to disciple and guide toward a deeper 
relationship in Jesus Christ.
         We are a body, each doing our part.  If Rick's job is to 
scatter the seed and mine is to water and hoe, then so be it.  I'm 
just not going to bother spending my time complaining about where the 
seed is scattered.  I figure that God can take care of that too.
Kathy



At 02:02 PM 12/2/2006, you wrote:
>Kathy,
>
>I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said.  In fact, I was born
>again at the age of 5 listening to Billy Graham on TV one night with my dad.
>Yes, he drifted into areas that drew criticism and it is no different with
>Rick Warren or Bill Macartney and Promise Keepers.  When criticism is
>constructive, that is, informative, I think it has value.  Just like what
>John posted about Jack Hayford the other day.  When leading men and women of
>God, or who at least claim they are speaking for God, say, and do, things,
>they are open for public scrutiny.  I have watched Charismatics, for
>example, change the way they present specific doctrinal issues because they
>were openly criticized.  Quite frankly, what bothers me the most is when
>these guys go political.  I'm registered and have voted since I was 18 years
>young.  I watched, back in the seventies, when the Baptist church I was in
>began to organize with other churches as a voting block.  It always bothered
>me.  Billie Graham somehow never got trapped by that element.  Focus on the
>Family is a fighting political machine now.  Rick Warren is drifting the
>same exact way.  As humble as I am, smile, let me say this.  I'm smart
>enough, spiritually and theologically, to see how such things create a
>Scriptural drift from the truth.  They become authorities in and of
>themselves due to their public stature.  Look at those who fell into that
>trap because they were no longer accountable even to their own followers.
>Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swagart, Ted Hagard, and I could name bunches more whose
>names would have no meaning to anyone on this list because they were
>Baptists I learned about growing up in the church years ago.  Promise
>Keepers, for example, started with a political aginda from day one and they
>openly said such was the case.  I am often criticized now for what I believe
>but I don't mind.  Of course, friends I once had won't touch me with a 10
>foot pole, unfortunately, but I understand.  I have never been afraid to
>people questioning me about what I believe especially when there is the
>possibility of going too far one way or the other.  I have people critical
>of everything I say and do these days.  26 years ago, my own youth pastor,
>whom I highly respected, found out I now speak in tongues and even as a
>close friend of the family, he told my sister I was demon possessed.  Many
>of my Baptist pastor friends questioned me back then.  Some disowned me and
>a couple of others listened.  Frankly, I'm not for preaching that so called
>Gospel at any price but many do it and feel there is nothing wrong with that
>philosophy.  It is the Christian that isn't discipled and trained well
>enough Scripturally whom I worry about because they are so easily led astray
>by any little doctrine.  As much as I can't stand Hank Hanagraaff, I have
>always been happy that he points out where a lot of the Charismatic guys are
>wrong.  Of course, Hank has his own aginda, too.  I just wish we could get
>back to preaching the Gospel.  We should be trying to lead the politicians
>to Christ and discipling them rather than trying to create a global peace
>plan.  Rick Warren must just not understand how impossible that is
>Scripturally since the world is going to soon be a one world system
>according to the Bible.  How could he miss something that big in the
>Scriptures?  I suppose he would say this is all in preparing for the return
>of Christ but it seems he is helping the other side more than standing
>against it to me.
>
>Phil.