Ginny,



You have just about summed it up.

I also find it amazing that there are rules but you have to complain before they are applied, and sometimes even when you complain, it may fall on deaf ears unless you persist. In that case, why bother to have them in the first place if no one has the courage to enforce them?Either you have rules or you have a free for all. Period!

Logical minds would assume that the reasoning behind the identification of persons being sponsored was for exactly the reason mentioned, so that they can be identified if they should engage in the cowardly act of insulting others while hiding behind pseudonyms set up under free email accounts. Some of the logic presented sometimes leaves me wondering if perhaps somehow the definition of things have taken on the oppositre meaning and I have yet to catch up.
Oh well, and we want democracy and the rule of law in Africa we say? I wonder if anyone will muster up the courage to apply them if we ever get to that point.

Abdu was provoked and threatened with blackmail for expressing his opinion and that is actually what led to his reaction.
So much for going round in circles.
Jabou Joh



-----Original Message-----
From: Ginny Quick <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 11:33 am
Subject: Re: Being real or Psuedo



If oen is required to supply a "first and last name" when registering 
for the G-L, and if a list manager has to vouch for one's identity by 
subscribing you, then someone should know who this "Essau Gambia" is. 
The point, fo me anyway, isn't whether or not someone changes their 
display name *after* subscribing, or even *before* subscribing to the 
Gambia-l, if someone wants to post under a pseudonym, that is OK, but 
if they are being subscribed to the list, I had htought that someone, 
somewhere, must or should know the identity of the person subscribing! 
Now, of course, being that this is the Net, this might be hard to 
verify, but at least if one has to supply a first an dlast name on 
subscribing, I thought the idea was that in so doing, we would cut 
down on things like people using pseudonyms to post malicious things 
about other people. 
 
Anyway, in any case, if there is a "rule", then it shoudl be applied 
to *everyone*, and there shouldn't be any rationalizing, or anything 
else, to try to get around the rule! 
 
And why should someone have to go and compalin to the list management 
any time there is a problem! I mean, I moderate a list, and if there 
is someone violating the list guideliens, I'm not going to say 
something like "well we can't do anything unless osmeone comes and 
compalins to us!" What?! If you see someone, righ tin front of you, 
violating the list rules, yet you sit and say, well, I can't do 
anything 'cause no one's complained to us?! Why even have th elist 
rules in the first place if the people imposing the rules on us won't 
even apply them! Or they only apply them selectively!? 
 
Perhaps another guideline we could put into place (assuming it is 
actually followed), is that along with supplying first/last names when 
sending in subscription requests, we could put togheter a profile that 
one could fill out, or, a person requesting subscription ot the list 
could be sent a copy of the list guideliens and send back a response 
stating that they do indeed undertand and agree to adhere to the list 
guideliens, etc. That way, if they violate the list guildeliens they 
can either be delisted, or givine a warning and hten be delisted! 
 
Either you have rules and you enforce them, or you dont have rules, 
but you can't have rules and hten when a problem arises, sit on your 
hadns and say that you're not going to do anything until someone 
complains! 
 
As far as being a "moralizer", why insult people who don't think that 
absuvie and insutling lanauge is OK? Especialy on a forum where there 
could be people who not only find htat langauge offensive, but young 
people could be on this list!? 
 
I don't think it's being some sort of "moral judge" to expect that 
grown people will speak to each other in a calm and decent way! And 
as far as "using the delete button", well, sometimes you don't know, 
until you start reading a message that it is vulger and insulting and 
by that time it's too late to use the delete key. 
 
But anyway. My whole point is that the list rules are what they are, 
they should be applied to all, when someone vilates them, and not 
selective and "only when someone complains". Or else, let's just 
scrap them altogehter an dlet's just have a free-for-all, anything 
goes, list. 
 
*sigh*, anyway, whatever decision is made, the list management needs 
to let the rest of us know so that, as Soffie said, we can make the 
deicsion as to whether or not we want to continue to remain on the 
list or not. 
 
Ginny 
 
 
On 6/4/07, Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
> Soffie, 
> 
> Thanks for stepping up, as opposed Malanding's deliberate attempt to insult 
> our common intelligence. Yes, the rules are there and he knows it even 
> better than I do and if they'd been implemented we would not be having this 
> discussion. 
> 
> As for the other aspect of you mail, I suppose the question is a 
> philosophical one. What is worse, a grown up man hiding behind a 
> pseudonym spreading deliberate and malicious lies about about a man who has 
> stepped up and keeps saying what he says under his full identity or when the 
> victim (not hiding) tells the LIAR that he'll dip his left foot into 
> somewhere we all don't want to hear about we and we all start jumping? 
> 
> Trying trying to rationalise such an inverted sense of morality by trying to 
> convince us that, no, we don't put on our shoes, that on the contrary, it's 
> our shoes that put us on? 
> 
> We, who can never wait to show how God fearing we are, not repulsed by such 
> lies and a deliberate attempt to taint the reputation of, for all I know, a 
> very good man? We, who never let an opportunity to lambaste Saja Taal for 
> being this and that? 
> 
> If we all begin by respecting ourselves first before expecting it from 
> someone else all will be fine here. 
> 
> Take this Malanding here for example trying to moralise. The guy knows my 
> name and I have never referred to him by anything else other than his name 
> but he insists on referring to me by something I have asked him to desist 
> from; not ashamed to come here and say that njaajaan is my own making? 
> 
> For God's sake show some respect for yourself and I'll show you some, rather 
> than continue monkeying here and feigning innocence til I retaliate and then 
> he'll be supplying hypocrisy with a new meaning, crying foul and pretending 
> to be holier than thou. Why not ask why exactly you, why not all the many 
> other members here? 
> 
> It does not help with "man njaay, yow njaay," as he tried to tell me 
> here, he does not know me, I don't know him; so when I object to being 
> addressed by something I've told him on three occasions I don't like, why 
> can't show some respect for himself and desist? 
> 
> My friends call me by many names including njaajaan, and much more since I 
> was a kid but I don't have that type of relationship with this character. Is 
> that so much to ask? 
> 
> And then to turn round and say if you have some beef with me... Who really 
> has a beef with whom. We begin to fail to be human when we cannot recognise 
> truth or begin to bend it. 
> 
> I still have the utmost respect that I have always had for you so be rest 
> assured that has not changed. 
> 
> Regards, 
> 
> Kabir. 
> 
> 
> On 6/4/07, Ceesay, Soffie <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
> > 
> > Good morning. The rule that every subscribed email address should show 
> > the owner's name has been in place for some time now. That there are 
> bogus 
> > names/email addresses is an anomaly. Personally, I don't care whether 
> > people use bogus names - there are no guarantees that Masaneh Ceesay is 
> the 
> > real owner of the email [log in to unmask] However, a Gambia-L 
> > "rule" is a "rule" and ought be followed. I am here suggesting that 
> > management take this issue up for resolution. Or if it is going to be an 
> > anything goes kind of environment, subscribing phantom individuals who are 
> > then given cover to throw sand in the food, we should make this clear so 
> > that those who would rather not be a part of it can unsubscribe. 
> > 
> > I think that our existence, who we are, our value to the community cannot 
> > and must not be summed up in those moments when we are goaded into letting 
> > loose and go for the jugular with visceral reactions. I am devoutly 
> > against insulting people's parents and we all know what results when that 
> > happens face to face. Our keyboards allows us to escape the ras-to-ras 
> that 
> > would have resulted. So, Kabir, I've lost no respect for Karim either and 
> > in this vast (internet), yet small (G-L) space we interact in, I will work 
> > to earn your, Karim's, and others' respect. 
> > 
> > This is for anyone - Why is it easier to let loose on our mothers and not 
> > fathers? What, within, is satisfied when you insult someone's parents and 
> > do the insults yield the value sought and what is that value? 
> > 
> > 
> > Soffie 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message----- 
> > From: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list [mailto: 
> > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kabir Njaay 
> > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:44 AM 
> > To: [log in to unmask] 
> > Subject: Re: Being real or Psuedo 
> > 
> > "Sister Soffie, 
> > On the contrary it is [log in to unmask] that owns Kabir Njaay since it 
> > is the username that is unique and not the other way round..." 
> > 
> > Just how numb in the brain can one be? 
> > 
> > So according to your convoluted logic, if you buy a car and register it 
> > with registration number: ABCXXXX, it is ABCXXX that owns you, or rather, 
> > it's the car that owns you? 
> > 
> > In further trying to rationalise the awkward you wrote 
> > 
> > "...The emailaccount [log in to unmask] like [log in to unmask] were 
> > subscribed with one REAL NAMES after confirmation with members of the 
> > management team..." 
> > 
> > Logical minds are prone to inquire, just why it is necessary then to 
> > confirm the identity of the potential members upon a subscription request? 
> > To logical minds it is unnecessary to explain that behind every rule/law 
> > there is an intent, but I am not surprised that to you that fact is lost 
> to 
> > you. 
> > 
> > Why would it be necessary to seek confirmation on the identity of someone 
> > who sends in a subscription request when they can present a bogus name and 
> > operate behind that even before sending in their first posting? Do I need 
> to 
> > spell that out too to you? Why the cowardliness? 
> > 
> > I for one have not lost one iota of respect for Abdou Karim Sanneh for 
> > responding in the manner he did when someone hiding behind a bogus name 
> can 
> > accuse him of all sorts of things about his personal life for merely 
> stating 
> > an opinion of an online paper that is shared by many, especially when 
> > management claims to know the identity of the character behind the bogus 
> > name. Neither not when 'management' failed to intervene to warn the funny 
> > character to either use his real identity or desist from his shenanigans, 
> > nor failed to divulge his real identity when requested by the members of 
> > this forum. I have not read one single objection to that request, on the 
> > contrary, all that voiced an opinion on the matter reiterated the need to 
> re 
> > enforce the rule on anonymity as they can remember them. 
> > 
> > I can even recall that during my early days on this forum, Momodou Camara 
> > used to send a list of all subscribers with both names and email addresses 
> > even though there was no rule on anonymity then. 
> > 
> > Going on to demonstrate your cluelessness you stated: 
> > 
> > "...My take is that it is subscribers problem if they chose to change 
> > those REAL NAMES, and as far as I know there is nothing in our rules 
> against 
> > that. If anything the List is based on the believe that subscribers will 
> > behave with maturity and descency but I would welcome any dicussion to 
> > address that loophole.." 
> > 
> > Where is the spirit of the rule on anonymity then? Lost in your convoluted 
> > intepretaion and reasoning? This to me is a further demonstration of the 
> > failure in everything Africans pertake in. You do not feel obligated to 
> the 
> > membersship of this list but will come up with explanation that will make 
> > even a corpse frown at its illogicality. 
> > "..Brother Kabir, njaajaan is your own creation not mine. And please find 
> > another way of addressing your beef with me. I don't know you but I 
> believe 
> > you can do better than singing "hyms"..." 
> > 
> > Hear how stupid you sound after beating about the bush with you convoluted 
> > logic to finally arrive at the purpose of your real intention. How is 
> > njaajaan my own making? Don't you know what my name is, shown in the 
> display 
> > field of all my mails and signed at the bottom? 
> > 
> > Why are you not for example referring to Jabou Joh as Gunjur, or all 
> > others by the user names on their email addresses? You can continue to 
> play 
> > stupid, but just address me by that just one more time, I can't wait! 
> > 
> > What beef could I possibly have with you? After I warned you to address me 
> > my my name or desist from addressing me at all you come here trying to 
> muddy 
> > the waters with the above nonsense? Hear how you come across? As a 
> clueless 
> > hypocrite when you say "...If anything the List is based on the believe 
> that 
> > subscribers will behave with maturity and descency..." 
> > 
> > Where is your maturity when I have to remind and warn you that you are 
> > provoking me? And the hypocritical moral adjudicators would jump up and 
> try 
> > to outdo each other when I respond in a manner which I deem as befitting 
> > your immaturity and childish pranks. 
> > 
> > That you'd misrepresent my warning as singing hymns instead of owning up 
> > to your provocation tell volumes. But try me, I'm all game, your idiocy 
> will 
> > be reciprocated in an exponential manner. 
> > 
> > What you can do is grow up and start being honest for once and implement 
> > the rules. Any "debate" that you are inviting here is a nonstarter. The 
> > rules are already there, the purpose of being in that group is not to play 
> > dumb. 
> > Address the issue the members of this list are interested in and stop 
> > trying to personalise it. 
> > 
> > Kabir. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 6/2/07, Malanding Jaiteh <[log in to unmask] > wrote: 
> > 
> > > Sister Soffie, 
> > > On the contrary it is [log in to unmask] that owns Kabir Njaay since 
> > > it is the username that is unique and not the other way round. The 
> > > email account [log in to unmask] like [log in to unmask] were 
> > > subscribed with one REAL NAMES after confirmation with members of the 
> > > management team. My take is that it is subscribers problem if they 
> > > chose to change those REAL NAMES, and as far as I know there is 
> > > nothing in our rules against that. If anything the List is based on 
> > > the believe that subscribers will behave with maturity and descency 
> > > but I would welcome any dicussion to address that loophole.. 
> > > 
> > > Brother Kabir, njaajaan is your own creation not mine. And please 
> > > find another way of addressing your beef with me. I don't know you but 
> > > I believe you can do better than singing "hyms". 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Malanding 
> > > 
> > > . according to our own Gambian trust and pure common sense keep track 
> > > of email addresses and not Ceesay, Soffie wrote: 
> > > 
> > > >Kabir, 
> > > > 
> > > >No, to your last paragraph. Free email address subscriptions should 
> > > >have 
> > > sponsors from among the subscribed and they are required to provide 
> > > the first and last names of the email address owners. 
> > > > 
> > > >The point I was making is that your email address has an identified 
> > > owner, Kabir Njaay owns [log in to unmask] and this is not, which 
> > > should be, the case with Essau Gambia. 
> > > > 
> > > >Soffie 
> > > > 
> > > >-----Original Message----- 
> > > >From: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list [mailto: 
> > > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kabir Njaay 
> > > >Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 5:19 PM 
> > > >To: [log in to unmask] 
> > > >Subject: Re: Being real or Psuedo 
> > > > 
> > > >Soffie, 
> > > > 
> > > >I believe my subscription and that of "Esseu Gambia" are different. 
> > > >When 
> > > I was subscribed it was by a List Manager who knows me personally and 
> > > aslo knew that I 'own' that particular email address I asked to be 
> > > subscribed with bacuse we had exchanged privately many times with that 
> > same address. 
> > > >The List Manager in question is Sidibeh. 
> > > > 
> > > >The reason I asked for clarification on this particular issue was to 
> > > ascertain if hence anyone can be subscribed with any address anytime 
> > > and from your response I glean that is the case and sponsorship is 
> > > nolonger required? 
> > > > 
> > > >Regards, 
> > > > 
> > > >Kabir. 
> > > > 
> > > >On 6/1/07, Ceesay, Soffie < [log in to unmask]> wrote: 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >>Kabir, 
> > > >> 
> > > >>You got it. When you were subscribed, even though your email 
> > > >>address did not contain your name, you were identified as the owner 
> > > >>of that email address and so it should be with Essau Gambia's 
> > > >>subscription and everyone elses. 
> > > >> 
> > > >>As for accountability, I think the person flaunting the "rules" that 
> > > >>guide discussions on the L be held accountable, and not the person 
> > > >>who sponsored their subscription. 
> > > >> 
> > > >>Soffie 
> > > >> 
> > > >>-----Original Message----- 
> > > >>From: The Gambia and related-issues mailing list [mailto: 
> > > >> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kabir Njaay 
> > > >>Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 4:02 PM 
> > > >>To: [log in to unmask] 
> > > >>Subject: Re: Being real or Psuedo 
> > > >> 
> > > >>Soffie, 
> > > >> 
> > > >>Thanks for the clarifucation but I thought the whole purpose of the 
> > > >>exercise of not allowing 'free email addresses' to be subscribed 
> > > >>without a sponsor was to discourage pseudo/anonymous subscriptions; 
> > > >>and where 'free email addresses' are subscribed the sponsor would be 
> > > >>held accountable because he/she is supposed to know the identity of 
> > > sponsored? 
> > > >> 
> > > >>If the above is right and I aslo assume this "Essau Gambia" was 
> > > >>subscribed not so long ago, then management must have the name of 
> > > >>the 
> > > sponsor stored? 
> > > >> 
> > > >>Please rectify me if I am wrong but the above is my recollection 
> > > >>from that debate about anonymity on the list and that those 'rules' 
> > > >>were even shared here. 
> > > >> 
> > > >>Regards, 
> > > >> 
> > > >>Kabir. 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > 
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