Julie, the rich man and Lazarus did not communicate with each
other. The rich man communicated but in that passage in Luke 16, he
didn't see anything on earth. He remembered what was on earth.
earlier, JULIE MELTON, wrote:
>Helen,
>
>That's a good point. However, the passage in Revelation is talking
>about the New Jerusalem on Earth after the second coming. At that
>time, there certainly will be no more sorrow or pain forever.
>
>In the gospels, though, Jesus talks about the rich man and Lazerus
>being able to see and even communicate with each other on a limited
>basis, and that would seem to support those in heaven currently
>being able to glimpse those on Earth. Just my opinion but backed up
>with Scripture.
>
>
>
>JulieMelton
>visit me at
>www.heart-and-music.com
>or subscribe to my podcast at
>http://feed.feedburner.com/hmradio
>Keep smiling!
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: Helen Wolf <[log in to unmask]>
>>Reply-To: The Electronic Church <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Some personal thoughts
>>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:31:12 -0500
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Dear EChurch family,
>>
>>
>>As I have been reading the posts on the subject of "cloud of
>>witnesses" and "wondering" concerning whether those who
>>have gone before us do, or can, see us and events here on earth, the
>>scripture that came to my mind was this one:
>>
>>
>>Revelation 21:4 And God shall
>>wipe
>>
>>away
>>
>>all
>>
>>tears
>> from their eyes; and there shall
>>be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any
>>more pain: for the former things are passed away.
>>
>>
>>If after my life here on earth is done, and I go to meet Jesus
>>Face to face and live in His Presence eternally, then if I could look
>>back on things on earth like grandsons who are chemically addicted to
>>drugs and alcohol, then there would continue to be tears and sorrow and
>>crying, and pain over seeing them in that condition.......and that isn't
>>what God has promised in the scripture above. He also says
>>that the former things are passed away.
>>
>>
>>Just my thoughts.
>>
>>
>>Love ya all
>>
>>Helen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Earlier you wrote:
>>
>>
>>Brad,
>>
>>
>>Then what do you think "cloud of witnesses" means? I
>>don't think our loved
>>
>>ones are the focus of our faith, and I don't continuallly dwell on their
>>
>>
>>watching over us. However, God being the focus doesn't
>>preclude loved ones
>>
>>watching and even cheering us on in the race.
>>
>>
>>I also resent the implication that your approach is truth and mine is
>>based
>>
>>on emotion. I've studied the context of that scripture before, and
>>that's
>>
>>always been my interpretation and that of many others.
>>
>>
>>JulieMelton
>>
>>visit me at
>>
>>
>>www.heart-and-music.com
>>
>>or subscribe to my podcast at
>>
>>
>>http://feed.feedburner.com/hmradio
>>
>>Keep smiling!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>
>>From: "MV" <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:36 PM
>>
>>Subject: Re: wondering.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Chapter and verse are for our benefit and so reading
>>"through" the
>>
>> > beginning of Chapter 12, starting back in Chapter 11 we
>>have...
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas
>>the
>>
>> > Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned. By faith the walls of
>>
>>
>> > Jericho
>>
>> > fell down after they were encircled for seven days. By faith the
>>harlot
>>
>> > Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had
>>received
>>
>> > the spies with peace. And what more shall I say? For the time would
>>fail
>>
>> > me
>>
>> > to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David
>>and
>>
>> > Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms,
>>worked
>>
>> > righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
>>quenched
>>
>> > the
>>
>> > violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness
>>were made
>>
>> > strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of
>>the
>>
>> > aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again. And others
>>were
>>
>> > tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a
>>better
>>
>> > resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings,
>>yes, and
>>
>> > of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two,
>>were
>>
>> > tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in
>>sheepskins and
>>
>> > goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented-- of whom the world
>>was
>>
>> > not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and
>>caves of
>>
>> > the earth. And all these, having obtained a good testimony through
>>faith,
>>
>> > did not receive the promise, God having provided something better
>>for us,
>>
>> > that they should not be made perfect apart from us. Therefore we
>>also,
>>
>> > since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay
>>aside
>>
>> > every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us
>>run with
>>
>> > endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus,
>>the author
>>
>> > and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him
>>endured
>>
>> > the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand
>>of the
>>
>> > throne of God.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Seems to me a laundry list of examples of peoples trials and
>>triumphs were
>>
>> > listed stating they did not receive the promise but
>>God indeed had
>>
>> > something better in mind for us, and the "cloud of
>>witnesses" is a point
>>
>> > of
>>
>> > historical reference on which we can look upon knowing we, although
>>may
>>
>> > endure hardship, will indeed receive the promise. Also note
>>the early
>>
>> > list
>>
>> > of events and how they all mention they had "faith", it
>>didn't say they
>>
>> > were being comforted by the watchful eye of those who earlier passed
>>on.
>>
>> > Faith I think we can safely presume is that in and from God. To me
>>taking
>>
>> > those three words and stretching it to be watchful eyes from
>>above is
>>
>> > unhealthy. If you notice the continuance shows Jesus to be the focus
>>of
>>
>> > our
>>
>> > faith and and not those who have gone before us. I'd have to see
>>
>>
>> > supporting
>>
>> > Scripture to see this. I think we have to look at it from God's
>>
>>
>> > perspective
>>
>> > as much as we possibly can. He is our focus, our point of faith
>>and
>>
>> > comfort, our joy, our peace and not those we loved in this world who
>>have
>>
>> > passed on. That doesn't mean we stop looking on their memory as a
>>loving
>>
>> > thing, or that we don't find our selves changed by them or that they
>>stop
>>
>> > living in our hearts, but I'm not sure God would approve
>>of them being a
>>
>> > point of comfort, peace, thinking they are watching over us in
>>stead or
>>
>> > along with him, or even the thought they take part in our aid here?
>>I'm
>>
>> > sorry, I can not respect that thought. It is nice to think, to help
>>make
>>
>> > our emotional shortcomings easier to deal with, but that doesn't
>>make it
>>
>> > truth. I'd like to see more Scripture reference on this please.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Brad
>>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>
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>>
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>>
>>Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/655 - Release Date:
>>1/28/2007 1:12 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>
>>Checked by AVG.
>>
>>Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/655 - Release Date:
>>1/28/2007 1:12 PM
>>
>>
>>"My Life is not in what He gives me, but in Who He is."
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>--
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>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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>1/30/2007 9:31 AM
John
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