There is an interesting article in the recent New Yorker that talks about 
Professor An-Na'im and another Sudanese thinker, Mahmoud Mohammed Taha. 
I just finished reading--but maybe not entirely digesting--that article. 
I'm not aware that it is available online, but well worth seeking out the 
magazine.

Jane

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Jane Zainab Warner-Tholley
University of Washington
Seattle, Washington  98195


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On Thu, 14 Sep 2006, abdoukarim sanneh wrote:

> What an informative piece.Sofie thanks for sharing with us.
>
> "Ceesay, Soffie" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:  A Forward -
> Saudi Lifestyle Contradicts Islam - Prof. An-Na'im
>
> Daily Trust (Abuja)
> INTERVIEW
> September 13, 2006
>
> By Uthman Abubakar
>
> Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im, who hails from Sudan, is currently a Professor
> of Law at Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. He was, at various
> times, Associate Professor of Law (Head of Department of Public Law),
> University of Khartoum, Sudan; visiting Professor of Law, Harvard Law
> School, Cambridge, U.S.A; Scholar-In-Residence e, the Ford Foundation,
> Office for the Middle East and North Africa, Cairo, Egypt; and Executive
> Director, Human Rights Watch/Africa, Washington DC, U.S.A, among others.
> He was in Nigeria recently to deliver a lecture on African
> Constitutionalism and the Role of Islam in Politics and the Society at a
> seminar organized by Centre for Democracy and Development. He answered
> some questions from Uthman Abubakar after the seminar.
> A prevailing belief among most observers of Nigerian affairs is that the
> problem of the implementation of some of the vital aspects of the
> country's constitution borders on corruption, especially the
> monetization of the voting process during elections. What do you think
> is the way out of this?
> If I have malaria, at the beginning, I know the symptoms. I have fever,
> I have this, and I have that and so on and so forth. So, I will go and
> have a diagnosis from a doctor. I will then have a prescription, which I
> will apply. Then, overtime, I get treated. The point is this. The
> Nigerian experience with regard to corruption is not unique. There are
> many societies with corruption against which they have their own
> separate strategies. The problem with corruption is that it infects the
> people with whom you have to work. It is very insidious, very secretive
> and very difficult to detect.
> The United States, which is now seen as the topmost superpower, had a
> very serious problem with corruption in the 1920s and the 1930s. For
> example, mafia organized crimes bribed judges, juries and mayors. The
> former mayor of Atlanta was convicted recently on corruption charges,
> accepting bribes and evading taxes. The tax charge was proved by the
> prosecution, and he is going to prison. So, anywhere - Japan, China,
> Russia or anywhere, as we speak there are corrupt officials; as we
> speak, there are people who are trying to subvert the democratic
> process; but also as we speak, there are people who are struggling to
> create institutions to fight corruption, and they succeed. It is
> relative. Italy has the problem; Latin America has it, and every other
> country.
> Most of these countries have been able to implement their constitutions
> with varying degrees of success, in spite of the prevailing corruption,
> but Nigeria does not seem to have been successful in that regard...
> Those countries were successful overtime, although no country sits back
> and waits for anything to happen. It took the United States three to
> four decades to tackle organized crimes, bribing officials and other
> forms of corruption, but they did not sit back and wait for it to
> happen. What I am saying is that with regard to fighting corruption, we
> should not be impatient, but we should not be complacent. I say it to
> every single Nigerian, and to me as an African, that we know what is
> wrong, we know how to correct it, but we lack the will to act. Nigeria
> is one of the most prominent African societies, a highly educated and
> sophisticated society. Nigerians know and Nigerians have the capacity to
> do it, but they lack the will to do it. This is where my point is
> focusing. Let us acknowledge that it is our failure of will, not our
> lack of ability to implement our constitution to eradicate corruption,
> to eradicate poverty.
> Zamfara state adopted the Islamic legal system, Sharia. It was attacked
> for, among many others, implementing a religious constitution within a
> broader Nigerian society which operates a secular constitution. How do
> you see a nation operating two conflicting constitutional systems and
> prospering?
> I will recall what Sayyidina Aliy Ibn Abi Talib said. As a Muslim, I am
> bound by Sharia, and I can never escape my responsibility for my
> obligation under Sharia. But Sharia can not be enforced by the state,
> because the state's institution of bureaucracy, in fact, leads to
> corruption of Sharia itself. I believe that the realm of Sharia is in
> the community and in the individual Muslim's conscience and practice. We
> know that there is no religious action which is valid without Niyyah
> (intention), the intention to comply. State institutions cannot have
> Niyyah because it is a person, it is not an entity. It is an
> institution.
> The second point is that, whether we like it or not, the reality is that
> there are many differences among Muslims as well as between Muslims and
> non-Muslims. If we talk of Nigeria as a country where 50 percent are
> Muslims and 50 percent are Christians, even if there is a country with
> only two or three percent who are Christians or who are pagans, still
> you will have the problem of uniformity in the applicability of
> different laws. The country belongs to all of them, whereas my belief as
> a Muslim, my obligation to implement and to observe Sharia is my
> religious obligation.
> So, my point is that we should not use state institutions to claim that
> we are imposing religious obligations. This is false. And I think the
> point is that as a Muslim, and someone who is a Christian in any state
> in Northern Nigeria or in the east or south can promote our religious
> values. The fact that we can observe our religious obligations as a
> matter of Sharia is beyond questioning. That is already accepted and
> granted. For example, if the state permits Ribah (usury) does not mean
> that I as a Muslim can engage in Ribah. I observe my religious
> obligation by not engaging in Ribah. I establish an authentic banking
> system, that is a private institution in which I can use resources to
> create wealth and so on. So, we can do this without the state enforcing
> it. If the state tries to enforce it, it is bound to create a very
> strong backlash.
> In Nigeria, and I say this very bluntly, if Muslims insist, and it is
> not all Muslims, it is some Muslims who are trying to impose their own
> understanding of Sharia on everyone else at the expense of the unity and
> stability of the country. We have had six years of Sharia in the 12
> Northern states now. Let us honestly look and see what difference that
> initiative made. The problem with initiatives like Zamfara state which
> is trying to impose the Sharia code is clear. It is a lie by the way. I
> don't believe that you can impose the Sharia code. Once you enact a
> statute like the penal code, it is no longer a Sharia principle. It
> becomes a political will of the state, not the religious law of Muslims.
>
> As a Muslim I have a choice among competing opinions of scholars. We
> know that the Fuqaha' have tremendous disagreements and respective
> difference of opinions. Throughout Muslim history, people have had a
> choice. I can go to a Maliki judge or a Hanafi judge according to my
> view of what is a valid view. But when the state imposes a particular
> view of a Maliki doctrine as a matter of state will, it is denying
> Muslims freedom of choice. So, my point is that Muslims can promote
> religious values in the communities; they can even have them adopted as
> a state policy, but through a process of consensus building with the
> idea of what I call public reason.
> That means we have to give room for certain compromises. Even among the
> various sects of Muslims themselves and between the Muslims and the
> non-Muslims, when it comes to consensus building on how to run the
> affairs of the state according to individual inclinations, there will be
> compromises. Some Muslims, even among themselves, may not accept that.
> Muslims and non-Muslims may also not agree on that. Each will insist on
> having his way, no room for compromises ...
> Then you will have civil war. The point is that, do you realize the full
> consequences? Any Muslim, who says 'I will not compromise,' should go
> and live somewhere else on his own. But if you want to live in the same
> place with other people, you have to compromise. The point is that the
> person who says I will not compromise, I will say to him, imagine how
> you will feel if the other person says the same thing. That is if a
> Christian wants to impose Christian values on the state, would you
> accept? If not, why would you expect a Christian to accept you imposing
> your own values on him? So, compromise is a vital social need. We cannot
> live in the society without compromise. We cannot live even in a single
> family without it. Husband and wife have to compromise to live together.
> A child and its parents have to compromise to live together. If Muslims
> say we will not compromise, they should know that what they are saying
> is that we will go to civil war, because the other side will not accept
> your imposing it on them.
> A major topic of debate and misunderstanding in the implementation of
> Sharia is Hudud (corporal punishments) . How do you see the chopping off
> of the hand of the Muslim convict for stealing?
> The Hudud (corporal punishments) are not a vital principle. It is in
> fact a very human interpretation. There are 55 members of the
> International Conference of Islamic countries. Muslims constitute about
> 1.3 billion people of the world population. That is, one fifth of the
> total population of the world is Muslims. Where among all these Muslims
> is the Hudud being implemented? How are they being implemented even when
> they are claimed to be implemented? My point is that the Hudud issue is
> really a lie and a way of distracting people from the real issues. In
> Saudi Arabia, in Iran, in Nigeria, in Sudan the Hudud are not
> implemented. They are not implemented against the powerful; they are not
> implemented against corruption.
> People should look around them and see, how did the Hudud apply in the
> Northern states which claim to have imposed Hudud since 2000? How many
> people with influence or power have been brought to account? How can you
> cut the hand of a thief who steals N20 or N100 and allow someone who
> steals billions of naira to get away with it? If you look at Islamic
> history, it is not true that Hudud have been a vital part of Sharia
> throughout the history. The definition of every Hadd is a human
> interpretation. The idea that you can impose the Hadd punishment by some
> sort of state power is also a very corrupting influence. I believe that
> from the Sharia point of view, if we are to implement Hudud at all, it
> should be the last thing we do.
> We should, first, build social justice, education, enable people to know
> what their obligations are, and then come to Hudud at a very later
> stage. What we see, and I say it very bluntly, in all the 12 states of
> Northern Nigeria, the Hudud was the first thing to do, and remains in
> the books to intimidate and also to create this aura that we are an
> Islamic state. But the corruption continues unabated. There is
> underdevelopment, poverty and lack of services. What is Sharia's view on
> corruption? What is Sharia's view on lack of education or lack of health
> facilities? I charge that the people who claim that they are
> implementing Sharia are saying what they are not doing. Sharia is total.
> Why is Sharia only on Hudud, and even the Hudud, only against the weak
> and the marginal?
> How then can you assess the success or failure of Sharia in these
> states?
> Sharia does not succeed or fail, because it is not an entity. It is
> people who succeed or fail. I say that Muslims who claim to implement
> Sharia in Northern Nigeria have failed. It is not that Sharia has
> failed. It is those people who claim to implement Sharia that have
> failed in its implementation. My point is that it is always human
> beings; it is never Sharia that is the problem.
> Do you subscribe to the idea that the failure of the implementation of
> Sharia is substantially attributable to some mischief by advanced
> countries to ensure that no Islamic endeavour succeeds because it is
> "terrorism"?
> If you want to have a Nigeria united, you cannot have a law that
> discriminates against non Muslims. We know that the current
> understanding of Sharia does, in fact, discriminate against non Muslims.
> Sharia, as in the Qur'an and Sunnah, is the ultimate obligation of
> Muslims, but every other interpretation of it is only human. I say to
> the governor of Zamfara, how does he justify choosing among the Sharia
> principles those which are within the jurisdiction of the state to apply
> Sharia in, and those which are outside the jurisdiction? If he has an
> obligation to apply Sharia, then it is total. He cannot say that this is
> state jurisdiction and this is federal jurisdiction. When he says this
> is state and this is federal, he is accepting the federal constitution
> principle. If you want to apply Sharia it should be total.
> Why is Sharia in Hudud and not in Ribah? How does any state of the North
> accept income from the federal budget which is not consistent with
> Sharia? These are the contradictions. So, my point is that this claim is
> false, and Nigeria will not stand united if Muslims refuse to compromise
> and, instead, say that we will insist on our way. On the question of
> foreign powers wanting anything Islamic to fail, let us make a
> distinction between what they wish and what we do. The fact is this is a
> wish, why should it be our action? Malik Bin Nabil, the North African
> Islamic Scholar, said colonialism is a consequence, not a cause. That
> is, it is colonialism that created our decline; it is our decline that
> invited colonialism.
> Our failure to be strong, to be honest, to be united, to be productive
> and to be competent was the problem. It is the decline of Islamic
> civilizations that allowed the European powers to come into our regions.
> So, my point is that let us stop making excuses. What do Britain, France
> or the United States have to do with the way Muslims behave as rulers in
> Zamfara state, or Kano or any state. So, if you insist on no compromise,
> you can go your own way, declare independence and establish a perfect
> Islamic state. If you want to be part of Nigeria, you have to accept
> what it means to be part of Nigeria.
> You also posited in your recent lecture that there is nothing like the
> Islamic Ummah (community). You described the Ummah as a fallacy. Are you
> saying that nations like Saudi Arabia, Iran and others which claim to be
> Islamic states are not Islamic Ummahs?
> No! They are not. In fact Saudi Arabia is one of the least Islamic
> countries in the world. The behaviour of the Saudis, their life styles,
> their attitudes, their arrogance, completely undermines the claim that
> they are an Islamic state. It is a hereditary monarchy. The king of
> Saudi Arabia is there by virtue of being of the Al Saud family, not by
> virtue of being a pious Muslim or a learned Muslim or an honest
> administrator. It is a corrupt monarchy. You see, when we say that the
> West wants to undermine us, it is because we do the things that enable
> them undermine us. Our economies, our education, our defense, our
> foreign policy, all of these things have totally collapsed. The idea of
> Ummah is a rhetorical idea. We use it in rhetoric. We will say, let us
> have solidarity, but when it comes to the real test, we do not stand by
> solidarity.
> The current colonization of Iraq by the United States and Britain could
> not have happened or continued for a single day without the complete
> cooperation, connivance and support of Islamic and Arab countries
> surrounding Iraq. Without the cooperation of Kuwait, without the
> cooperation of Saudi Arabia, without the cooperation of Qatar, it could
> not have happened. Qatar is the largest American base in the Middle
> East, much more than Israel. So, how do we behave like this and still
> claim that there is what we call the Islamic Ummah which brings us all
> united in solidarity? It is a lie. I am not saying it is not possible. I
> am saying that it is not true now.
>
>
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