Kathy,
I know you guys do not worship either flag, it
was more for commenting on both sides of the
issue. I agree neither representation ought be
there if it causes any brother to stumble, with
Greg being the shepherd, it would be my opinion
that decision is up to him.
Somehow denominational doctrines tend to put the
sheep in the lead. Kind of like the tail wagging
the dog isn't it? I feel it is up to the shepherd
to lead the sheep, not the other way around. I
understand your denominational position, that
they can vote Greg off and etc. which to me is
not right, it holds back a godly man doing what
God is telling him to do for fear of what a
congregation might think. That's my one cents
worth. One cent you say? Yep, if I say my 2
cents, that would mean I'm done babbling, and you
know that never happens lol.
Brad
on 04:13 PM 4/23/2006, Kathy Du Bois said:
Hey Brad,
I think that you probably already know
this, but Greg and I aren't idolizing the
Christian flag. We wouldn't mind if they were
both gone. I know that there is a pledge to the
bible and a pledge to the Christian flag, but I
don't know either of them and I don't really care
if I ever do. My kids know them. They have to
say them at their Christian school, but I don't
know them. The congregation has forced us to
keep the flags in plain view, in the middle of
worship, so that leaves us wanting to put the Christian flag first.
I do understand, to a degree, why the
veterans love the flag so much. I can't imagine
being fired upon and worrying about whether you
are going to live or die. As long as you could
see that flag, you knew that there was hope for
survival. I have never had to face that
circumstance, but I can appreciate it. However,
God still needs first place.
You know, you were wondering if
Christians had as strong of a devotion for
Christ and His word. I don't think so. It was
in the concentration camp that Corey Tenboom
realized just how precious even one gospel could
be. I don't think that we value Jesus' precious
blood as we ought. All we know is that it saved
our hides from eternal damnation and that's good enough. Very sad.
Kathy
At 04:48 PM 4/23/2006, you wrote:
Kathy,
The military folks are well trained, or
brainwashed to a degree, on honoring the flag and
nation and all of that. Wouldn't it be a real
test to see if Christians felt the same way in
varying circumstances? Oh, well, it seems you do
have that very situation indeed. Hands down it is
a Christian representation which ought go before
the American flag. However equally to the fact
the American flag ought not serve as a idol or
god, neither ought the Christian one, as it
wasn't the Christian flag who is god. Your
question of whether which ought hold higher honor
in a church, a Christian flag or American one, is
almost so obvious it is almost redundant. I
understand your veterans, but they need to
understand Christ died for all people, not just
Americans. How then would putting the American
flag first be any different than your country
putting its own ideals birthed out of its
citizens to take God off our money, pledges and
courtrooms? The USA need to know its place in
existence, and before Christ is not it. I love
this country too, but we are a people many times
grounded on false security and patriotic piniáta,
a shell of patriotism filled with sweet gimme's
and fail to see we do have faults and we are not
superior in people, God created all equal, but not equal to God himself.
Brad
on 03:19 PM 4/23/2006, Kathy Du Bois said:
Hi Guys,
Well, it looks like Greg and I might be
in a bit of the thick of it
again. Unfortunately, it isn't because of
doctrine or anything like that, it's over the
position of the flags in our church. It would be
interesting to see if you guys have anything to say about it.
The Bangor area is pretty military. Our
airport doubles as a civilian airport and a
military base. We have the longest runway
in the country, so I'm told because of this
union. Many of the troops who are either flying
overseas, or returning home, go through Bangor
Maine. We have a group of people, in the area,
who have established themselves as troop greeters
to give them a warm American send off or welcome
no matter what time the military plane arrives,
day or night. A few of the members of our
congregation participate in this. Hopefully,
this helps to set the stage for what blew up today.
The church has always had two flags in
the front of the sanctuary. One is the American
flag and one is the Christian flag. In flag
protocol, established by the military in the
early 1800s, the flag of the highest honor is
supposed to be positioned to the right of the
speaker. In a church, this would mean to the
right of the pastor. Well, this protocol was
established before the Christian flag was even
created so it doesn't mention the Christian flag
or how to deal with it at all. Some pastors have
opted to just remove the flags from the sanctuary
altogether to stop the bickering, but our
congregation wants the flags to remain. This
leaves us with an interesting dilemma, which
flag should receive top honors in a church?
First of all, I will say very
emphatically that Greg and I are both very
patriotic. We love our country and we are
grateful to live here. We have no interest in
protesting the war, or the military and we never
have, but, we believe that Christ should receive
top honor in His sanctuary. If you go to any of
the offices of government, the court house, the
town office, or any military establishment, such
as the V.F.W. or the American Legion, you won't
even see a Christian flag on display and that is
okay. We may say that we are one nation under
God, but we aren't and we aren't insisting that
the Christian flag appear anywhere outside the
church. However, as much as I love this country,
my first allegiance is to Christ. I will protest
when my country becomes immoral, but I will cling
to the cross of Christ no matter who is in earthly power.
Well, at our business meeting, it came
up today. The veterans among us are all
protesting, some threatening to never come to our
church again, because the Christian flag is in
the honored position. I have to say that most of
the congregation voted in support of Greg,
putting Christ first. Greg had even talked to an
army chaplain on the matter before today and the
chaplain agrees with Greg, but never the less,
it's a small town, so the winds of trouble are blowing again.
When I arrived home, I looked up the
first commandment in Exodus 20:3-6.
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol in the
form of anything in heaven above or on the earth
beneath or in the waters below.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God,
punishing the children for the sins of the
fathers to the third and fourth generations of
those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand
generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
I don't know, perhaps I am making too much of the
connection, but I couldn't help but wonder if
part of the reason that our society is so messed
up today is because other things, such as flags,
have replaced our love of the one true God in first place in our lives.
Unfortunately, the veterans, in all
this, won't hear our point because of their
emotional commitment to the flag. They see us in
the same way as they saw the Viet Nam protestors
of the 60s and, to be truthful, it is hard for us
to respect their commitment to Christ that they
would be willing to break up community over
this. We have done services in the past honoring
the veterans, but that doesn't seem to be remembered now.
Just pray for us Guys. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Kathy
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