So I suppose you wanna have your votes and eat them too? Somehow I knew you
understood me Paco and you just love them votes. To wit:
Masoud wrote: You probably missed what I was saying in my pioneer
commentary."
[Au contraire, I have read it and suprise, suprise agreed with some parts of
your argument.] Mori.
And you did not state thusly. But you were adamant about the supposed
disagreement which is non-existent.
"I responded to your subsequent post to challenge your meme that Obama and
his supporters are trying to change the rules regarding the role of
superdelegates." Mori.
That was me sharing the intent of Obama-heads to insult the intelligence of
superdelegates and armtwist them into voting for him because of fosse
numerical advantage.
"Nothing could be further from the truth." Mori.
How so?
"Moreover you are comparing apples to oranges when you compare the rule that
bar the michigan and florida delegates from been seated to the rule that
super delegates can vote for any candidate." Mori.
I don't understand Mori. They are both rules as you admit. They were both
agreed to prior to the campaigns, the superdelegates for umpteen years and the
MILF rule more recently. Change of either now means changing the rules
mid-contest.
"DNC rules do not obligate super delegates to thwart the popular will of
Democratic primary voters and caucus goers. Just as DNC rules allow for super
delegates to thwart the popular will of Democratic primary voters and caucus
goers, those same rules allow for super delegates to ratify the popular will of
Democratic primary voters and caucus goers. Both are well within the rules.
The decision is up to the super delegates." Mori.
Exactly. I agree with you Ousman. And you agree with me on the superdelegate
rule. In other words the character of the rule of superdelegates is the
discretionary nature of their votes.
"Whilst in the case of Michigan and Florida, the rule specifically said they
won't be counted." Mori.
Right. The character of the MILF rule says that having thwarted the schedule
of the party, the states' delegates will not be seated at the convention or
counted toward either candidate's fortunes. So we agree again Mori.
"The difference is that if super delegates decide to ratify the popular will
of Democratic primary voters and caucus goers, then super delegates are
upholding both the rules of the DNC and the principle of democracy. In other
words, voting to thwart the popular will upholds DNC rules, but not their values,
while voting to ratify the popular will upholds both DNC rules and values."
Mori.
This is where I think you tried to manufacture disagreement. You are
addressing the UNDEMOCRATIC value of the superdelegate structure but you pretend to
be oblivious to the undemocratic nature of the MILF rule. The MILF rule is
UNDEMOCRATIC because the desire of the DNC to schedule primaries and caucuses of
states to fit into a certain calendar is inconsiderate of the states and
their voters. Why would tradition and authority of the DNC trump the value of
freedom of will and association for industry???? A simple negotiation prior to
campaigning would yield compromise. But the DNC, given to some authoritarian
posture, did not anticipate such a contentious contest. So unless you believe
the DNC bieng biased to IOWA and NEWHAMPSHIRE in primary and caucus
schedules, you would agree that all states are equal in the schedules of their
primaries and caucuses. What'll it be Paco??
"I have a feeling that at the end of the most superdelegates will vote to
uphold both the rules and values." Mori.
I understood. You like votes. And you will arm-twist the superdelegates to
vote against their consciences as long as that means votes for Obama.
Intimidation. Browbeat. What says the value of popular will in an ethnically and
sexually-tinged election trumps the value of the conscience of a
superdelegate???? Besides, the superdelegates are ethnically diverse also but numerically
disadvantagious to Latinos, Asian Americans, Arab Americans, and Pacific
Islanders. You get the dichotomy don't you?????
Therefore, save for the manufactured difference, the two arrangements are
rules of the DNC, agreed to prior to campaigning. You can offer argument as to
character of the two rules. RULES nonetheless. And if you are purely averse
to CHANGING RULES MID-CONTEST, you wouldn't change either now. You quibble
about it after the contest having licked your DEMOCRATIC chops.
Good speaking with you. This was the engineer in you. In fabrication mode.
And you didn't even know it.
Masoud. MQJGDT. Darbo. AL Mu'Umin. Wa Khaalal Mala'a min khawmihee Lletheena
Khafaroo Bi-Likhaa'El Akhariti wa-Atrafnaahum fil hayaati Ddunyaa Maa
Haathaa Illaa basharun mithlukum Ya'akulu mimmaa ta'Akuloona minhu wa-yashrabu
mimmaa tashraboona. The strict constructionist lacks panoramic perspective.
Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Mori,
You probably missed what I was saying in my pioneer commentary. I present
it
here again:
Haruna Darbo wrote: It is agreed that the agreement adopted by the
democratic party to discount
Michigan and Florida delegates because their respective state parties
veered from the primary and caucus schedules is UNDEMOCRATIC and it should
not
have been considered in the first place. However, it was considered and
adopted prior to campaigning and the decision should stand. Whatever affect
it has
on Democratic party fortunes for this year's presidential elections must
be
absorbed and the party can reconsider the arrangement for the next
elections.
It is also agreed that the idea of super delegates determining the nominee
in the event of a tie or when neither candidate achieves the requisite
number
of primary and caucus delegates, is UNDEMOCRATIC. And it should not have
been adopted by the democratic party in the first place. However, it was
adopted
and all competitors for nomination knew and implicitly accepted that
arrangement prior to campaigning for the nomination, and the arrangement
should
stand. Whatever affect it has on Democratic party fortunes for this year's
presidential elections must be absorbed and the party can reconsider the
arrangement for the next elections.
Fair is fair, and quit whining yourselves to defeat Democrats. If the
Michigan and Florida delegates are to be counted, then the superdelegate
structure
must be squashed. Alternatively, if the superdelegate structure is to be
squashed, then the Florida and Michigan delegates must be counted. That is
what I see to be the essence of Hillary Clinton's argument. It makes
sense, it
is honourable, and it is fair.
Now then my friend Ousman, and I see you're still here with us.
Haruna wrote: "I understand how you or another can read greed into it.
Trust
me when I first heard Hillary wishes to have Florida and Michigan delegates
be seated and counted, I looked at the rationale behind it. I came to find
out the Obama-heads wished to disenfranchise her delegates from those
states
and whip up a groundswell of chatter about the undemocratic nature of
superdelegates. The two are astute lawyers and they have lawyers managing
their
campaigns. There is a subtle trick in lawyering and I will explain later."
Mori wrote: [Not so fast my friend. How did you arrive at the conclusion
that Obama heads are trying to disenfranchise delegates from the two
states?]
See the maiden note above.
"The Democratic National Committee with the approval of both campaigns laid
down their rules." Mori.
Exactly. The rules for both Michigan and Florida delegates and the
superdelegates. I agree with you Ousman.
"Michigan and Florida broke the rules." Mori.
Exactly. Not the voters, but the party apparatchik.
[Your solution? Rules don't matter as long as your candidate benefits from
breaking those rules.] Mori.
NO. My solution is: Michigan and Florida delegates don't count and the
superdelegate structure stays. The two can be revisited after the elections
and
when they are, the superdelegate structure will be ammended for more
democracy
and the DNC would leave scheduling of primaries and caucuses to the state
parties as long as no two primaries or caucuses conflict in date only. There
is
another drawback to that but that is comparatively insignificant. I said
that
if the Obama folk insist on revamping the superdelegate structure prior to
the convention, then Florida and Michigan delegates must be seated and
counted.
I think we are on the same plane now Ousman.
"Granted, Michigan and Florida are particularly important states in the
general election," Mori.
For me, Florida and Michigan are not any more important than Maine and
Hawaii.
"but their party leadership screwed the states by breaking DNC rules. So
the
states -- who could've been influential in the regular calendar -- held
potemkin contests and are now nothing more than pawns in the
Clintontonista's
efforts to gain an unfair advantage." Mori.
NO Mori. They are not pawns. The voters voted their wishes. The Party
Apparatchik screwed up, not the voters. Hillary Clinton did not force
anyone to
vote for her. Neither did Obama force anyone to vote for him. I know the
blacks
and Arab-Americans did not vote in the numbers they would have if their
votes
were to count, and that is precisely why I say Michigan and Florida
delegates ought not be counted or seated in this nomination race. I think
you agree
with that don't you?
"So what to do?" Mori.
See immediately above.
"Well it is not easy, but for the sake of the party, I think they should
split the delegates from Michigan and Florida 50/50. Give Clinton half the
delegates, Obama the other half." Mori.
No Mori. I know you like votes but if you were to split the votes (doesn't
matter however you would split it) you will have counted and honoured the
delegates somehow, correct? You would therefore renege on the prior
arrangement
between the candidates and of the DNC not to honour the delegates. An
arrangement, signed, sealed, and delivered prior to commencement of the
campaigns. I
understand that you want this cockamayme and seemingly "compromising
arrangement" because you have your eyes set on Hillary's superdelegates.
New
Gambians!!! I think PDOIS should make you their campaign strategist. Call
uncle
Suntou. He knows people in PDOIS. Maybe you can help them wake up from
their
sleepless slumber. No not you Mr. Jobarteh.
"The states get representation at the convention, but we don't have to
change the rules of the game mid-contest in a way that impacts the race
unfairly."
Mori.
Mori, if we do what you suggest 50/50 split, we WILL HAVE CHANGED THE RULES
OF THE GAME MID-CONTEST. Forget the impact.
"Sure, the Clinton partisans wouldn't like it, but if the issue is
enfranchising those state's Democrats, this is the fair way to do it." Mori.
No. Hillary and Obama will be more than happy to yield to my solution.
There
is no other solution worth considering and they know it as astute lawyers.
Your solution is partisan, biased, and disingenuous. Run it by Obama along
side
my solution and see what he says.
"Remember, those states didn't have real contests. Many Democrats stayed
home because their vote wasn't supposed to count. Seating the delegations
based
on the delegates Clinton won isn't representative of the state's will."
Mori.
I agree with you Mori. Believe it or not.
"If we can't have a new contest to determine the real apportionment of the
delegates, then let's simply seat them, but in a way that they don't impact
the race." Mori.
NO. We are not having a new contest and we are not seating the delegates.
We
are also not revamping the superdelegate structure now or at anytime prior
to
the nomination. If we do it, I will personally file a lawsuit againt the DNC
in district court.
OK. Bye! Masoud. MQJGDT. Darbo. Al Khairawan.
Haruna Darbo wrote: Mo,
How are you again? Good to see you.
I understand how you or another can read greed into it. Trust me when I
first heard Hillary wishes to have Florida and Michigan delegates be seated
and
counted, I looked at the rationale behind it. I came to find out the
Obama-heads wished to disenfranchise her delegates from those states and
whip up a
groundswell of chatter about the undemocratic nature of superdelegates. The
two
are astute lawyers and they have lawyers managing their campaigns. There is
a
subtle trick in lawyering and I will explain later.
Now the Obama-heads like Ousman had counted on momentum from Obama's series
of potomac wins and serial-endorsers to maintain a lead over Hillary and dam
pen any hopes of Texas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, etc. yielding the comeback
kid.
Like Husband, like wife. And if that held true, then they wish to attack
the
conscience of superdelegates. They are not really worried about the
undemocratic
nature of the superdelegates so much as affecting the latter's conscience
in
their favour. The superdelegate structure has been there for decades
without
challenge as my friend Erskine Bowles would testify. To hedge against this
bet, Hillary argues that she wishes the Florida and Michigan delegates be
included. Publicly, Hillary's camp had been silent on the superdelegates
matter
but they have been campaigning as if the structure is immune to revamp at
this
late hour. That is where I derived the implicit argument of Hillary that
she
wishes the superdelegate structure remain intact. I have sent my own
comments to the DNC.
Now the two candidates are playing the trick of ask for a pound and should
you receive an ounce, you will remain victorious. Neither of the candidates
are
terribly interested in the fortunes of the Democratic party at large at
this
point. They are both understandably selfish for now. The matter will come
to
haunt them when either faces John McCain. All of a sudden, John McCain
appears pleasing. Unless of course the matter of Clinton V Obama is
settled
prior
to the convention which is what I think will happen so they can go into
the
convention unified and stronger against the Republicans.
Modou, I like you a lot that is why I shared some proprietary information
here au gratis.
Masoud. MQJGDT. Darbo. AL Mu'Umin.
In a message dated 2/15/2008 10:54:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Haruna,
I think Hillary Clinton's argument is that superdelegates should remain
AND
that Florida and Michigan delegates should be seated. Please review her
statements on both issues...
Full Disclosure: I am also a hopemonger :-)
best,
Modou
Haruna Darbo wrote: It is agreed that the agreement
adopted by the democratic party to discount
Michigan and Florida delegates because their respective state parties
veered
from the primary and caucus schedules is UNDEMOCRATIC and it should not
have
been considered in the first place. However, it was considered and adopted
prior to campaigning and the decision should stand. Whatever affect it has
on
Democratic party fortunes for this year's presidential elections must be
absorbed and the party can reconsider the arrangement for the next
elections.
It is also agreed that the idea of super delegates determining the nominee
in the event of a tie or when neither candidate achieves the requisite
number
of primary and caucus delegates, is UNDEMOCRATIC. And it should not have
been
adopted by the democratic party in the first place. However, it was
adopted
and all competitors for nomination knew and implicitly accepted that
arrangement prior to campaigning for the nomination, and the arrangement
should stand.
Whatever affect it has on Democratic party fortunes for this year's
presidential elections must be absorbed and the party can reconsider the
arrangement
for the next elections.
Fair is fair and quit whining yourselves to defeat Democrats. If the
Michigan and Florida delegates are to be counted, then the superdelegate
structure
must be squashed. Alternatively, if the superdelegate structure is to be
squashed, then the Florida and Michigan delegates must be counted. That is
what I
see to be the essence of Hillary Clinton's argument. It makes sense, it
is
honourable, and it is fair.
Masoud. MQJGDT. Darbo. Al Mutawakkil.
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