OUch that stings.


Lelia Struve email [log in to unmask] msn [log in to unmask]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [CCNN] The Christian Paradox


>I think it is convenient to be Christian when folks need to be and not
> when they feel they don't need to be. How much more are we on our knees
> when we meet up with personal challenges, or nine eleven comes into play,
> but how easy it is to forget when things are going well and we sit back on
> our spiritual laurels. Forgive me Lord, and keep me from entering this
> type of abuse of your Word and sacrifice.
>
> Brad
> on 08:52 PM 8/11/2005, Vinny Samarco said:
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> --Boundary_(ID_I85HsTtmQ64Pa4DQ8Lv6qA)
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Here is a good article to ponder, not necessarily written by a =
> conservative.
>
> Vinny
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Rick Johnson=20
> To: ccnn=20
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 5:15 PM
> Subject: [CCNN] The Christian Paradox
>
>
> The Christian Paradox
> How a faithful nation gets Jesus wrong
> Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005. What it means to be Christian in =
> America. An excerpt. Originally from August 2005. By Bill McKibben.=20
> Sources=20
> Only 40 percent of Americans can name more than four of the Ten =
> Commandments, and a scant half can cite any of the four authors of the =
> Gospels. Twelve percent believe Joan of Arc was Noah's wife. This =
> failure to recall the specifics of our Christian heritage may be further =
> evidence of our nation's educational decline, but it probably doesn't =
> matter all that much in spiritual or political terms. Here is a =
> statistic that does matter: Three quarters of Americans believe the =
> Bible teaches that "God helps those who help themselves." That is, three =
> out of four Americans believe that this uber-American idea, a notion at =
> the core of our current individualist politics and culture, which was in =
> fact uttered by Ben Franklin, actually appears in Holy Scripture. The =
> thing is, not only is Franklin's wisdom not biblical; it's =
> counter-biblical. Few ideas could be further from the gospel message, =
> with its radical summons to love of neighbor. On this essential matter, =
> most Americans=97most American Christians=97are simply wrong, as if 75 =
> percent of American scientists believed that Newton proved gravity =
> causes apples to fly up.=20
>
> Asking Christians what Christ taught isn't a trick. When we say we are a =
> Christian nation=97and, overwhelmingly, we do=97it means something. =
> People who go to church absorb lessons there and make real decisions =
> based on those lessons; increasingly, these lessons inform their =
> politics. (One poll found that 11 percent of U.S. churchgoers were urged =
> by their clergy to vote in a particular way in the 2004 election, up =
> from 6 percent in 2000.) When George Bush says that Jesus Christ is his =
> favorite philosopher, he may or may not be sincere, but he is reflecting =
> the sincere beliefs of the vast majority of Americans.=20
>
> And therein is the paradox. America is simultaneously the most =
> professedly Christian of the developed nations and the least Christian =
> in its behavior. That paradox=97more important, perhaps, than the much =
> touted ability of French women to stay thin on a diet of chocolate and =
> cheese=97illuminates the hollow at the core of our boastful, careening =
> culture.=20
>
> * * *
>
> Ours is among the most spiritually homogenous rich nations on earth. =
> Depending on which poll you look at and how the question is asked, =
> somewhere around 85 percent of us call ourselves Christian. Israel, by =
> way of comparison, is 77 percent Jewish. It is true that a smaller =
> number of Americans=97about 75 percent=97claim they actually pray to God =
> on a daily basis, and only 33 percent say they manage to get to church =
> every week. Still, even if that 85 percent overstates actual practice, =
> it clearly represents aspiration. In fact, there is nothing else that =
> unites more than four fifths of America. Every other statistic one can =
> cite about American behavior is essentially also a measure of the =
> behavior of professed Christians. That's what America is: a place =
> saturated in Christian identity.=20
>
> But is it Christian? This is not a matter of angels dancing on the heads =
> of pins. Christ was pretty specific about what he had in mind for his =
> followers. What if we chose some simple criterion=97say, giving aid to =
> the poorest people=97as a reasonable proxy for Christian behavior? After =
> all, in the days before his crucifixion, when Jesus summed up his =
> message for his disciples, he said the way you could tell the righteous =
> from the damned was by whether they'd fed the hungry, slaked the =
> thirsty, clothed the naked, welcomed the stranger, and visited the =
> prisoner. What would we find then?=20
>
> In 2004, as a share of our economy, we ranked second to last, after =
> Italy, among developed countries in government foreign aid. Per capita =
> we each provide fifteen cents a day in official development assistance =
> to poor countries. And it's not because we were giving to private =
> charities for relief work instead. Such funding increases our average =
> daily donation by just six pennies, to twenty-one cents. It's also not =
> because Americans were too busy taking care of their own; nearly 18 =
> percent of American children lived in poverty (compared with, say, 8 =
> percent in Sweden). In fact, by pretty much any measure of caring for =
> the least among us you want to propose=97childhood nutrition, infant =
> mortality, access to preschool=97we come in nearly last among the rich =
> nations, and often by a wide margin. The point is not just that (as =
> everyone already knows) the American nation trails badly in all these =
> categories; it's that the overwhelmingly Christian American nation =
> trails badly in all these categories, categories to which Jesus paid =
> particular attention. And it's not as if the numbers are getting better: =
> the U.S. Department of Agriculture reported last year that the number of =
> households that were "food insecure with hunger" had climbed more than =
> 26 percent between 1999 and 2003.=20
>
> This Christian nation also tends to make personal, as opposed to =
> political, choices that the Bible would seem to frown upon. Despite the =
> Sixth Commandment, we are, of course, the most violent rich nation on =
> earth, with a murder rate four or five times that of our European peers. =
> We have prison populations greater by a factor of six or seven than =
> other rich nations (which at least should give us plenty of opportunity =
> for visiting the prisoners). Having been told to turn the other cheek, =
> we're the only Western democracy left that executes its citizens, mostly =
> in those states where Christianity is theoretically strongest. Despite =
> Jesus' strong declarations against divorce, our marriages break up at a =
> rate=97just over half=97that compares poorly with the European Union's =
> average of about four in ten. That average may be held down by the fact =
> that Europeans marry less frequently, and by countries, like Italy, =
> where divorce is difficult; still, compare our success with, say, that =
> of the godless Dutch, whose divorce rate is just over 37 percent. =
> Teenage pregnancy? We're at the top of the charts. Personal =
> self-discipline=97like, say, keeping your weight under control? Buying =
> on credit? Running government deficits? Do you need to ask?=20
>
> * * *
>
> To read the remainder of this essay, pick up a copy of the August issue =
> of Harper's Magazine, on newsstands near you. Looking for a newsstand?
>
> About the Author
> Bill McKibben, a scholar-in-residence at Middlebury College, is the =
> author of many books, including The End of Nature and Wandering Home: A =
> Long Walk Across America's Most Hopeful Landscape. His last article for =
> Harper's Magazine, "The Cuba Diet," appeared in the April 2005 issue.=20
>
> This is The Christian Paradox, a feature, originally from August 2005, =
> published Wednesday, July 27, 2005. It is part of Features, which is =
> part of Harpers.org.=20
>
>
> --=20
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> --------------=20
> Rick Johnson=20
> http://profiles.yahoo.com/ccnnowner
> Constitution Party Member / Virginia=20
> [log in to unmask]
> [log in to unmask]
>
> "Providence has given to our people=20
> the choice of their rulers. And it is the=20
> duty as well as the privilege and interest,=20
> of a Christian nation to select and prefer=20
> Christians for their rulers."=20
> First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay, February 28, 1797=20
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section=20
> 107, any copyrighted work in this message=20
> is distributed under fair use without profit=20
> or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. =20
> www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
> -------------------------------------------
>
> Under Bill S.1618 TITLE III passed by=20
> the 105th U.S. Congress this letter=20
> cannot be considered "spam" as long=20
> as it  includes:=20
> 1) contact information and,=20
> 2) the way to be removed from future mailings=20
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS=20
>
>   a..  Visit your group "ccnn" on the web.
>    =20
>   b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    [log in to unmask]
>    =20
>   c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of =
> Service.=20
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -------
>
>
> --Boundary_(ID_I85HsTtmQ64Pa4DQ8Lv6qA)
> Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> Here is a good article to ponder, not = necessarily=20 written by a
> conservative.
>
> Vinny
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Rick = Johnson=20
> To: ccnn
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 5:15 PM
> Subject: [CCNN] The Christian Paradox
>
>
> The Christian Paradox
>
>
> How a faithful nation gets Jesus wrong
>
> Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005. What it means to = be=20 Christian in
> America. An excerpt. Originally from August 2005. By Bill = McKibben.=20
> Sources =
>
> Only 40 percent of Americans can name more than four of the Ten =
> Commandments,=20 and a scant half can cite any of the four authors of the
> Gospels. Twelve = percent=20 believe Joan of Arc was Noah's wife. This
> failure to recall the = specifics of our=20 Christian heritage may be
> further evidence of our nation's educational = decline,=20 but it probably
> doesn't matter all that much in spiritual or political = terms.=20 Here is
> a statistic that does matter: Three quarters of Americans = believe the=20
> Bible teaches that "God helps those who help themselves." That is, three =
> out of=20 four Americans believe that this uber-American idea, a notion at
> the = core of our=20 current individualist politics and culture, which was
> in fact uttered by = Ben=20 Franklin, actually appears in Holy Scripture.
> The thing is, not only is=20 Franklin's wisdom not biblical; it's
> counter-biblical. Few ideas could = be=20 further from the gospel message,
> with its radical summons to love of = neighbor.=20 On this essential
> matter, most Americans=97most American = Christians=97are simply=20 wrong,
> as if 75 percent of American scientists believed that Newton = proved=20
> gravity causes apples to fly up.
>
> Asking Christians what Christ taught isn't a trick. When we say we = are
> a=20 Christian nation=97and, overwhelmingly, we do=97it means something. =
> People who go to=20 church absorb lessons there and make real decisions
> based on those = lessons;=20 increasingly, these lessons inform their
> politics. (One poll found that = 11=20 percent of U.S. churchgoers were
> urged by their clergy to vote in a = particular=20 way in the 2004
> election, up from 6 percent in 2000.) When George Bush = says that=20
> Jesus Christ is his favorite philosopher, he may or may not be sincere, =
> but he=20 is reflecting the sincere beliefs of the vast majority of
> Americans. =
>
> And therein is the paradox. America is simultaneously the most =
> professedly=20 Christian of the developed nations and the least Christian
> in its = behavior. That=20 paradox=97more important, perhaps, than the
> much touted ability of = French women to=20 stay thin on a diet of
> chocolate and cheese=97illuminates the hollow at = the core=20 of our
> boastful, careening culture.
>
> * * *
>
> Ours is among the most spiritually homogenous rich nations on earth.=20
> Depending on which poll you look at and how the question is asked, =
> somewhere=20 around 85 percent of us call ourselves Christian. Israel, by
> way of = comparison,=20 is 77 percent Jewish. It is true that a smaller
> number of = Americans=97about 75=20 percent=97claim they actually pray to
> God on a daily basis, and only 33 = percent=20 say they manage to get to
> church every week. Still, even if that 85 = percent=20 overstates actual
> practice, it clearly represents aspiration. In fact, = there is=20 nothing
> else that unites more than four fifths of America. Every other =
> statistic=20 one can cite about American behavior is essentially also a
> measure of = the=20 behavior of professed Christians. That's what America
> is: a place = saturated in=20 Christian identity.
>
> But is it Christian? This is not a matter of angels dancing on = the=20
> heads of pins. Christ was pretty specific about what he had in mind for =
> his=20 followers. What if we chose some simple criterion=97say, giving aid
> to = the poorest=20 people=97as a reasonable proxy for Christian behavior?
> After all, in the = days=20 before his crucifixion, when Jesus summed up
> his message for his = disciples, he=20 said the way you could tell the
> righteous from the damned was by whether = they'd=20 fed the hungry,
> slaked the thirsty, clothed the naked, welcomed the = stranger,=20 and
> visited the prisoner. What would we find then?
>
> In 2004, as a share of our economy, we ranked second to last, after =
> Italy,=20 among developed countries in government foreign aid. Per capita
> we each = provide=20 fifteen cents a day in official development
> assistance to poor = countries. And=20 it's not because we were giving to
> private charities for relief work = instead.=20 Such funding increases our
> average daily donation by just six pennies, = to=20 twenty-one cents. It's
> also not because Americans were too busy taking = care of=20 their own;
> nearly 18 percent of American children lived in poverty = (compared=20
> with, say, 8 percent in Sweden). In fact, by pretty much any measure of =
> caring=20 for the least among us you want to propose=97childhood
> nutrition, infant = mortality, access to preschool=97we come in nearly
> last among the rich = nations,=20 and often by a wide margin. The point is
> not just that (as everyone = already=20 knows) the American nation trails
> badly in all these categories; it's = that the=20 overwhelmingly Christian
> American nation trails badly in all = these=20 categories, categories to
> which Jesus paid particular attention. And = it's not as=20 if the numbers
> are getting better: the U.S. Department of Agriculture = reported=20 last
> year that the number of households that were "food insecure with =
> hunger"=20 had climbed more than 26 percent between 1999 and 2003.
>
> This Christian nation also tends to make personal, as opposed to =
> political,=20 choices that the Bible would seem to frown upon. Despite the
> Sixth = Commandment,=20 we are, of course, the most violent rich nation on
> earth, with a murder = rate=20 four or five times that of our European
> peers. We have prison = populations=20 greater by a factor of six or seven
> than other rich nations (which at = least=20 should give us plenty of
> opportunity for visiting the prisoners). Having = been=20 told to turn the
> other cheek, we're the only Western democracy left that = executes its
> citizens, mostly in those states where Christianity is=20 theoretically
> strongest. Despite Jesus' strong declarations against = divorce, our=20
> marriages break up at a rate=97just over half=97that compares poorly =
> with the=20 European Union's average of about four in ten. That average
> may be held = down by=20 the fact that Europeans marry less frequently,
> and by countries, like = Italy,=20 where divorce is difficult; still,
> compare our success with, say, that = of the=20 godless Dutch, whose
> divorce rate is just over 37 percent. Teenage = pregnancy?=20 We're at the
> top of the charts. Personal self-discipline=97like, say, = keeping your=20
> weight under control? Buying on credit? Running government deficits? Do =
> you need=20 to ask?
>
> * * *
>
> To read the remainder of this essay, pick up a copy of the August = issue
> of=20 Harper's Magazine, on newsstands near you. Looking for a newsstand?
>
> About the Author
>
> Bill McKibben, a scholar-in-residence at Middlebury College, is the =
> author of=20 many books, including The End of Nature and Wandering Home: A
> = Long=20 Walk Across America's Most Hopeful Landscape. His last article
> for=20 Harper's Magazine, "T= he Cuba=20 Diet," appeared in the April 2005
> issue.
> This is The Christian Paradox, a = feature,=20 originally from August
> 2005, published Wednesday, July 27, 2005. It is = part of=20 Features,
> which is part of = Harpers.org.
>
>
> --=20
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------------------=20
> Rick Johnson
> http://profiles.yahoo.com/cc= nnowner
> Constitution=20 Party Member / Virginia
> ccnn-subscribe@yahoogroups= .com
> [log in to unmask]
>
> "Providence=20 has given to our people
> the choice of their rulers. And it is the =
> duty=20 as well as the privilege and interest,
> of a Christian nation to = select and=20 prefer
> Christians for their rulers."
> First Chief Justice of = Supreme=20 Court John Jay, February 28, 1797=20
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> In=20 accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section
> 107, any copyrighted work in = this=20 message
> is distributed under fair use without profit
> or payment = for=20 non-profit research and educational purposes only. =20
>
> www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
> --------------------------= -----------------
>
> Under=20 Bill S.1618 TITLE III passed by
> the 105th U.S. Congress this letter=20
> cannot be considered "spam" as long
> as it  includes:
> 1) = contact=20 information and,
> 2) the way to be removed from future mailings =
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>  Visit your group "ccnn" on the = web.
>  =20
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email=20 to:
>  cc= [log in to unmask]
>  =20
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of =
> Service.=20
>
>
>
>
> --Boundary_(ID_I85HsTtmQ64Pa4DQ8Lv6qA)--
>