> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paleolithic Eating Support List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ashley Moran
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 7:13 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: nightshades (was Re: tobacco)
> 
> On Mar 05, 2007, at 10:31 pm, Paleo Phil wrote:
> 
> > If nightshades were selectively bred to reduce toxin content, that
> > indicates
> > to me they were probably not eaten much, if at all, during the
> > Paleolithic.
> 
> Not at all, I thought?  Aren't (virtually) all nightshades new world
> foods?  (I stand to be corrected...)

Probably, and that's a good point, but that's not the only factor that's
considered, because many new world foods are closely related, or very
similar to, old world foods. For example, American bison are descended from
European bison. So Paleolithic Europeans never ate American bison, but if
they had they would find that they would fare quite well on them, since
American bison are so similar to their European ancestors. Winter squash,
pumpkins and avocado are also New World, but appear to be healthy. If
nightshades are vastly different from old world vegetables, then that could
be an issue but being New World doesn't make them non-Paleo. 

> > Do you know why Cordain and Audette consider nightshades Paleo?
> 
> I think Audette goes more by the principle "if you can eat it with
> nothing but a sharp stick" than by working out which plants were
> actually available to us.  

Yeah, I don't go entirely by the Old World / New World thing myself, so I
understand that. Some New World foods appear to be healthy, but the
nightshades apparently were toxic and then bred to be less so, according to
what Todd posted. That would seem to make them more like potatoes and beans
than vegetables like leafy greens. If winter squash had been available to
Paleo people they would have eaten them. They would not have eaten much
nightshades if they were available to them but they had to be selected over
many years before they were detoxified. 

I kinda go along with this... I'm sure
> paleo man came across a lot of plants at one point or another that
> were new.  As for Cordain, didn't he say that Canola oil is paleo?

Yeah, but let's not start up that issue again please. I don't want to catch
flak again on that. :-) Audette didn't advocate canola oil and he still
advocates all the nightshades except for potatoes, so we can stick with the
Audette example if you like. I guess what I'm looking for is what Audette's
reasoning would be for eating nightshades, or that of any of his supporters
who agree with him on this. It seemed fairly straight-forward to me until
Todd reported that all the nightshades had to be detoxified through
selection to make them edible, not just potatoes. What is your source on
that, btw, Todd?

> I'm no botanist, but it seems that a lot of plants share similar
> toxins (oxalic acid springs to mind), so it's not like our species
> has to evolve in the face of every new vegetable.  

Yes, all plants have toxins, so if the nightshade toxins are similar to
other plants that we've adapted to, that should make them safe--but then
that would make potatoes fairly safe too (although there would still be the
starch problem) and wouldn't explain Audette's warning against potato
alkaloids.

> Solanine is a new
> one to me and apparently is something the human body doesn't like too
> much.  I imagine there are species of wild tomato and pepper that are
> edible raw in reasonable quantities.  Also, new world settlers would
> have eaten *ripe* nightshade fruits, not ones picked green a week
> before they hit the supermarket shelves.

Yeah, but Audette didn't warn against eating supermarket nightshades, so I'm
thinking he must have had different reasoning, unless he didn't think it
through, assuming all nightshades were indeed toxic at one point.

> I don't think the presence of toxins alone is a reason to discount a
> food entirely.  

Yup, I agree. Even apples contain small amounts of cyanide in the seeds, but
not enough to cause a problem by accidentally ingesting a few.

> Elderberries are mildly poisonous raw (I didn't know
> this when I first ate them - just like I didn't know taro is
> poisonous raw until I'd already had a piece!), 

I believe taro is one of the forbidden foods of Audette and Cordain.