Well Vicki,
Truthfully, to answer your question about when the church stopped being
loving and accepting of others in their imperfections, I think that it's
pretty obvious from the history recorded in the bible that it began pretty
much at the beginning. That's why so much is written to correct such
sinful behavior by James and Paul and Peter. Satan has been working from
within since the get go. After all, if he can destroy the church, his
problems will be solved, so he thinks!
Kathy
At 10:41 AM 2/27/2005, you wrote:
>Kathy,
>
>In so many places the church has turned to people showing up on Sunday and
>doing their thing as spectators. I'd like to know when we quit accepting
>each other as brothers and sisters in the family of God with our limitations
>and imperfections as well as our God-given gifts. I'm not specifically
>saying that of your church. Just that this kind of trend has done no favors
>to the looks of Christ's bride.
>
>Vicki
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kathy Du Bois" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 9:11 AM
>Subject: Re: [ECHURCH-USA] Church On The Move
>
>
> > Vicki,
> > Thanks for understanding where I am coming from. I get tired of
> > church bashing, so I guess I just decided to speak up. I wonder how God
> > feels, knowing that His bride is a little loose herself, but then, hearing
> > the people that He loves and died for, throwing stones at her as well. It
> > is His bride after all. The church is the partner that He has chosen to
> > love the world in His name. I'm not saying that she does it
> > perfectly. After all, she is made up of sinners. How can the imperfect,
> > become perfect without God? But, she is His choice. Should we
>criticize
> > her so continuously?
> > Another concern that I have is the attitude of some that, "the
> > church should do this," and the church should do that," similarly to the
> > secular counterpart in thinking that, "the government should do this," and
> > "the government should do that," while all the time, that same,
> > fingerpointing individual, isn't interested in doing his or her own part.
> > This point may not apply to anyone on this list. I don't know. What I do
> > know is that we westerners seem to have this mind set that something
> > bigger should be able to handle it all, but we fail to examine what we can
> > do in our small way to make a difference right where we are.
> > I believe that it is wonderful that so many para church
>ministries
> > have sprung up to fill in the gaps or specialize where the church has left
> > gaps. I'm not saying that the church can't do more. I get frustrated too
> > when I look out over our congregation and see so many pew warmers who are
> > there for what they can get, or to fulfill their obligation of church
> > attendance for the week, rather than want to jump right in and get
>involved
> > to make a difference. I know myself that our church could do so much more
> > if everybody participated. For example, if we had three or four people
>who
> > were skilled enough to form a benevelence committee, then Greg wouldn't
> > have to do all of the investigating himself and, maybe, our church could
>do
> > more giving individually. I just don't see how ridicule helps.
> > Kathy
> >
> >
> > At 10:51 AM 2/26/2005, you wrote:
> > >Kathy,
> > >
> > >Thanks for sharing. I can respect where you're coming from. And it must
>be
> > >a very difficult place to have to be, pastor large congregation or small.
>I
> > >would have thought that this particular situation would have been one of
>the
> > >easier ones to have checked out though. Just glad help came from
>somewhere
> > >for these folks. And when it comes right down to it, God is still our
> > >source, even if he uses the rocks to help us out, just as he could elicit
> > >praise from those same rocks.
> > >
> > >Vicki
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Kathy Du Bois" <[log in to unmask]>
> > >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 6:32 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [ECHURCH-USA] Church On The Move
> > >
> > >
> > > > Okay, it sounds like we're up for our next round of bride
> > >beating
> > > > again: Christ's bride, that is. I don't think that you guys are
>being
> > > > very fair. Being on the other side of the issue, I'd like to say a
>word
> > >on
> > > > the church's behalf. We get lots of those calls too and so far at
>least,
> > > > every single one of them have been a hoax. How do I know? Because
>Greg
> > > > takes from a few hours to a whole day to check them out before he will
> > >give
> > > > the person a yes or no answer. Every single one of the people who
>have
> > > > contacted us, either feed us false information that leads down a lot
>of
> > > > dead rabbit trails, or they are just trying to pull a scam. Poor
>George,
> > > > in his need, is having to compete with that. In fact, from some
> > >statistics
> > > > that I've read, less than one in ten of the appeals made to a church
>are
> > > > legitimate. Did you hire your pastor to be an investigater or a
> > > > shepherd? Now, we've collected the names of a lot of para church
> > > > ministries or government agencies to give to the people who ask for
>help
> > > > and we don't give very often either unless the person is willing to
>take
> > > > the time to let us get to know them well. We give to these agencies
>as
> > > > well, recognizing that they are better equipped, because of their
> > > > specializations, to deal with special needs, than we are. Even
>then,
> > > > we've been burned a time or two.
> > > > In our church history, about ten years ago now, there was a
>local
> > > > family that came around at Christmas time with a real hard luck story.
> > >The
> > > > church and the Sunday school got together and gave them a really nice
> > > > christmas. Guess what they discovered when they dropped everything
> > > > off? This family had been making that appeal to all the local
>churches
> > > > and, well, let's just say that they had a very over flowing Christmas
>with
> > > > no apologies. when they came around the next year, it was very hard
>to
> > > > turn them down in love and not be bitter. Thank God for His help in
>that
> > > > one.
> > > > You guys see George as a person in need, and he is! There's
>no
> > > > doubt about that. You don't know what this church has been through in
>the
> > > > past, however. We're called to be wise as serpants and gentle as
> > > > doves. We're also called to be discerning and good stewards of what
>we've
> > > > been entrusted with. I'm sorry that George got a bad wrap from this
> > >church
> > > > and I'm glad that God did provide the help for him elsewhere. How do
>you
> > > > know that that wasn't God's plan all along to begin a relationship
>with
> > > > Christ, for that chief, through the help of people like George, and
> > >maybe
> > > > Phil.
> > > > Kathy, in defense of the Bride
> > > >
> > > > At 08:17 PM 2/25/2005, you wrote:
> > > > >Not only did that chief provide the home, but he put his money where
>his
> > > > >mouth is. Wonder if that would preach. Good thing I'm not of that
> > >calling.
> > > > >Ha.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Vicki
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Phil Scovell" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 6:11 PM
> > > > >Subject: [ECHURCH-USA] Church On The Move
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Vicki,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, the churches are related. The Denver pastor came from the
>church
> > >in
> > > > > > Tulsa. They run about 50 to 60 people here in Denver. the church
>in
> > > > >Tulsa
> > > > > > is quite large. Their websites are linked. This used to be one
>of
> > > > >George's
> > > > > > favorite preachers, too. I suppose, in all fairness, if George
>and
> > >his
> > > > >wife
> > > > > > would have made an appointment to go see the pastor, maybe
>something
> > > > > > different might have happened? No, forget that. It would have
>been
> > >the
> > > > > > same. I was in a big church once and they have several calls each
>day
> > > > >like
> > > > > > this and rarely do they stick their neck out for anybody and that
>is
> > >true
> > > > > > for nearly all their own members, too. I was accused of being
> > >cynical.
> > > > >Or
> > > > > > is it the truth people are fearful of?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Phil.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Vicki and The Rors" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 6:07 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: George and family update
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Was thinking about the religious background of the native
>American
> > > > >peoples
> > > > > > > and Cherokee tribe. Prayed that God would give them an extra
> > >blessing.
> > > > > > > Especially that chief.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Phil. Was going to ask you if those church on the moves were
> > >related.
> > > > > > They
> > > > > > > kind of did pattern after one another, didn't they, sadly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vicki
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Phil Scovell" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 1:56 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: [ECHURCH-USA] George and family update
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Two major developments.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > First, the untreatable bacteria in Jennifer's lungs is slowly
> > > > > > diminishing.
> > > > > > > > So much so, that their doctor said it is time to stretch our
> > >faith.
> > > > >He
> > > > > > > took
> > > > > > > > Jennifer off her I V and said she could leave the hospital for
>one
> > > > >week
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > see how she is doing. They called a local church in the
>Tulsa,
> > > > >Oklahoma
> > > > > > > > area with which they are familiar and that they buy tapes from
> > >often
> > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > the pastor is on the radio. The church is called Church On
>The
> > >Move.
> > > > > > > They
> > > > > > > > explained that they were looking for a home or small house or
>even
> > >a
> > > > > > house
> > > > > > > > trailer which they could possibly rent for a few weeks. They
> > > > >explained
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > were not employed at the moment because of the situation of
>round
> > >the
> > > > > > > clock
> > > > > > > > care of their daughter and they explained they lived 100 miles
> > >away
> > > > >and
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > doctor wanted them no more than 15 minutes away. This church
>said
> > > > >they
> > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > help members of their own church and couldn't help them.
>Wouldn't
> > > > >help
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > better word to use I think. Anyhow, George's wife is half
> > >Cherokee
> > > > >and
> > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > works in a local clinic back home. Vivian's sister works for
>the
> > > > > > Cherokee
> > > > > > > > tribe organization and the nation wrote them a check for 500
> > >dollars
> > > > > > > > recently. When the chief of the Cherokee nation learned they
> > >needed a
> > > > > > > > house, he gave them an address and told them they could live
>in
> > >that
> > > > > > house
> > > > > > > > for as long as they needed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Wednesday, George was getting his hair cut in the hospital
>when
> > >the
> > > > >Lord
> > > > > > > > spoke to him and said, I'm getting you a house. They were
>unaware
> > >of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > final arrangements by the chief of the Cherokee nation there
>in
> > >that
> > > > > > part
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > Oklahoma. George went back to his daughter's room and his
>wife
> > >said
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > has arrangements were finalized and they could live in it full
> > >time
> > > > >for
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > long as was needed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In the next couple of days, their doctor will be setting
> > >everything up
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the house that they will need to care for Jennifer and he will
>be
> > > > > > sending
> > > > > > > > his own people from his office who handle respatory therapy
>for
> > >that
> > > > > > part
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > it when she needs it. If she does well the first week, he
>will
> > >put
> > > > >her
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > in the hospital for observation and if that all goes well, he
>will
> > > > > > expand
> > > > > > > > her stay in the home to two weeks and so on.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The house is exactly 13 minutes from the hospital and doctor
>said
> > >no
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > than 15 minutes distance from the hospital. The house is two
> > >stories
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > big garage and sits on a full acre of ground. It has a 50
>foot by
> > >15
> > > > > > foot
> > > > > > > > sun room on the back of the house and a deck which almost goes
> > >half
> > > > >way
> > > > > > > > around the house. It is fully furnished. It is a house the
> > >leader of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Cherokee was trying to sell which he owns but since the market
>is
> > > > >slow,
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > > took it off the market for now.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Phil.
> > > > > > > > I flew Kites With Jesus
> > > > > > > > www.safeplacefellowship.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > > > > > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date:
>2/22/05
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > > > > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date:
>2/22/05
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > > > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/05
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
|
