oops.
Guess I missed that thread.
Vinny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathy Du Bois" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Right Church or should I say Family
> Vicki,
> If I may respond, I believe that the church can often be a more difficult
> place because it is more targeted by the devil and because the stakes are
> higher. If you get together with a friend over a beer in the world, the
> goal is simply to have a good time and help each other keep from getting
> board. In the church, the stakes are life and death and dealing with
> sin. I was shocked at Keith's admonition that his nonChristian
> aquaintences are church, just without Christ. Is the girl friend the same
> as the bride? Isn't Christ the point? That's a big difference!! Would
> his nonChristian friends die for him? I haven't read all of the responses
> yet, but I am amazed from what I have read, how much of the criticism
> sounds like, "I get nothing out of it." Is that the point of church? I
> thought that it was supposed to be what we can give. God is the Audiance
> after all.
> Kathy
>
>
>
> At 07:56 AM 1/26/2005, you wrote:
> >I never saw this post. So if it did and I'm duplicating, please forgive.
> >
> >Vicki
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Vicki and The Rors" <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: "Echurch-USA The Electronic Church"
<[log in to unmask]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 6:29 PM
> >Subject: Re: Re: Right Church or should I say Family
> >
> >
> > > Keith,
> > >
> > > Thanks for all of your good thoughts here. Much to digest. Ah! Good
> >food
> > > is worth digesting.
> > >
> > > I appreciate your look at the church being "family." And that we are.
> > > Sometimes it's good to act like it and sometimes not, depending on the
> > > family example we are following.
> > >
> > > Much wrong about the church, and it's easy to become critical. Like
your
> > > reference to jaded. Had no idea that was a UK book. But much is
right
> >with
> > > it, even if you look at it as an institution. In being critical of
it, we
> > > have to include ourselves as part of the church. In other words,
looking
> >to
> > > our own lives, each individually, and our ways before the Lord, should
be
> > > part of our criticism. I think that the world sometimes treats their
own
> > > kinder than Christians treat their own. But that's for another
e-mail.
> > > Remembering some years when there was no question that I was living in
the
> > > world, you could meet people with like mind about something, spend the
> > > evening either commiserating together with a group of friends or
having a
> > > good time as a group of friends. Often simple friendship and
acceptance
> >is
> > > missing from many of our churches.
> > >
> > > Yes, remembering that we are all the church, Christ's body, should
make a
> > > difference on how we respect, view and treat one another.
> > >
> > > Sometimes it, though not advocated by any of us, does take opposition
and
> > > perhaps persecution to put growth on the fast track for the body of
> >Christ.
> > >
> > >
> > > Vicki
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Keith Hodges" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Right Church or should I say Family
> > >
> > >
> > > > quotes from email by Vicky
> > > > > Have recently been thinking that I have some what of a jaded
attitude.
> > > >
> > > > Dear Vicki,
> > > >
> > > > funny you should use the term Jaded in reference to church because
there
> > > is
> > > > a book called "Jaded" that I bought here in the UK in which a number
of
> > > > people express their feelings on the subject of how they feel about
> > > church.
> > > > You or should I say we are not alone.
> > > >
> > > > >But in a properly functioning church,
> > > >
> > > > Try saying this, "lets go to family", doesnt that simply sound
wrong!
> >Well
> > > > yes it doesnt make sense. Family is closer to the true idea of what
> >church
> > > > is than a place, or a meeting. Essentially we are the church, you
are
> > > > church, I am church and we meet together as church.
> > > >
> > > > We all know that church is the people dont we, after all we are
taught
> > > that
> > > > at church. No, you see I have used the word "church" as it should
never
> >be
> > > > used. There is no "at" church, we "are" church.
> > > >
> > > > This also means that there is only one church, and all who are
children
> >of
> > > > God are in it all of the time. There is no time during the day when
I am
> > > not
> > > > in church. The Church of Jesus Christ simply is, and we are all part
of
> >it
> > > > if we are beleivers.
> > > >
> > > > The implications are pretty radical if you let them hit you...
> > > > think of the phrase "church attendance", it only makes sense if you
use
> > > the
> > > > word church to refer to a place or a meeting. Try my old trick, let
us
> >see
> > > > if using the word family in place of the word church helps us to
> > > understand
> > > > how it doesnt make sense. Ok here goes. "family attendance". See it
> > > > obviously does not make sense.
> > > >
> > > > What of the concept of church membership, meaning membership of a
> >church.
> > > > Again this idea is using the word "church" to refer to something, a
> > > building
> > > > or a group of people that was never conceived in the New Testament
when
> > > the
> > > > word ekklesia (the greek word for church) is used.
> > > >
> > > > I will leave "church leadership", as an excercise for the reader ;-)
> > > >
> > > > I want to throw in a mention of the word "pastor". Notice that the
> > > Ephesians
> > > > 5, ministries of Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher and Evangelist,
> > > describe
> > > > callings. They describe how a person relates to other people, its in
> >their
> > > > character. I will use Phil as an example, I am sure that he will not
> >mind
> > > me
> > > > saying that he has a prophetic calling, and this is characterised by
his
> > > > willingness to confront, or present the Lords truth to people
despite
> >what
> > > > others may think or say. Phil has that blunt honesty about him,
which
> >when
> > > > the Lord uses him, becomes a cutting edge. It is his character that
> >makes
> > > > him a prophet and the fact that the Lord has formed that character
in
> >him
> > > > through the whole of his life so that he can relate to other people
as a
> > > > prophet of the Lord Jesus.
> > > >
> > > > The fact is that the word "pastor" refers to someone who has a
caring
> > > heart
> > > > for others. It is in their very nature. In truth it has nothing to
do
> >with
> > > > leadership; I was surprised to discover that in actual fact the gift
of
> > > > "administrations" as listed in the list of spiritual gifts is that
of
> > > > leading and organising such as would be used in a business or
government
> > > > (but not forgetting Jesus is the head of the church)
> > > >
> > > > So remembering that only good trees bear good fruit and bad trees do
not
> > > > bear good fruit. We are taught to judge a tree by its fruit. If
anyone
> > > > claiming to be a pastor does not naturally receive, hear out,
respect,
> > > have
> > > > compassion for, demonstrate empathy for, any other human that they
meet,
> > > > then they dont have the character of a pastor. Without that caring
heart
> > > as
> > > > the essence of their being then then they simply are not a "pastor"
as
> >God
> > > > defines it.
> > > >
> > > > Now it is not right to stop there, if you see a tree that is not
bearing
> > > > good fruit, should it not be cut down and thrown into the fire. Ok
> >perhaps
> > > > that is a bit strong, but surely we should not be eating of the
fruit of
> >a
> > > > bad tree.
> > > >
> > > > Please dont get up set with me, hear me out.... I think I am being
> >logical
> > > > and sensible.
> > > >
> > > > Step 1. A "pastor" is a person with a caring heart who serves others
and
> > > > will go out of their way to look after sheep in a practical manner.
So
> > > > therefore those who are called to be nurses, or carers, or relief
agency
> > > > workers are "pastors".
> > > > Step 2, Therefore it follows that who call themselves pastors as
part of
> >a
> > > > church organisation in which they are the CEO are not fulfilling the
> >role
> > > of
> > > > a biblical pastor at all really.
> > > > Step 3 this means that God did not appoint them to that position.
> > > > Step 4 I realise that that makes the whole work of a "church" that
is
> >run
> > > by
> > > > a "pastor" since it was not Gods idea.
> > > > Step 5, dont partake of that fruit, teaching, covering etc, none of
this
> > > is
> > > > Gods idea of a good thing.
> > > >
> > > > > should there not be a place of service for every member of the
body of
> > > > > Christ? And what about the verses in Hebrews 10:24-25. New
Living
> > > puts
> > > > > it this way.
> > > > >
> > > > > Think of ways to encourage one another to outbursts of love and
good
> > > > > deeds.
> > > > > And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do,
but
> > > > > encourage and warn each other, especially now that the day of his
> >coming
> > > > > back again is drawing near.
> > > > > I like that outburst of good deeds.
> > > >
> > > > Ah yes, this is great you have pointed out the very thing that
people
> > > > usually misunderstand about this verse, the context. The purpose of
> > > meeting
> > > > together in this verse is not prayer, praise, learning, but it is to
> >"spur
> > > > one another on to 'outbursts of love and good deeds' ". This verse
was
> >not
> > > > written for the purpose of telling people who do not go to church
that
> > > they
> > > > ought to which is how it is most often used.
> > > >
> > > > So I think back to all of those church meetings I have been to. Have
you
> >
> > > > ever been to a service where that was really the purpose of the
meeting.
> >I
> > > > myself have never been to a church service that was for the purpose
of
> > > then
> > > > going out and doing something like ministering to the poor. In my
> > > experience
> > > > those sorts of meeting tend to be in smaller groups who meet to go
and
> >do
> > > > something.
> > > >
> > > > > We won't have that perfect church until heaven, but the church
today
> >is
> > > >
> > > > ah... Surely Gods true church is the one that he said he would
build. "I
> > > > will build my church" I think he said. Those that are free in Christ
are
> > > > able to share their gifts and minister and serve as God calls. They
have
> > > the
> > > > time and the freedom to grow in relationship with Christ and live
and do
> > > > what he is calling them to do. Those who are free and obedient to
the
> >Lord
> > > > also dont really care what people think of them so they get on with
it.
> > > >
> > > > The problem is when you or I as an individual, one of Gods children
who
> > > are
> > > > free, choose to submit to a nominated person or leader or
organisation,
> > > then
> > > > you find that your freedom is limited, the relationships are no way
as
> > > deep
> > > > as they should be etc etc etc. Our freedom is also stolen from us by
the
> > > > enemy who sows seeds in our minds of fears and doubts that limit us
in
> > > doing
> > > > what the Lord would like us to do.
> > > >
> > > > > severely hampered, and misses out because members of the body
aren't
> >in
> > > > > their places erving, sharing their God-given gifts, ministering
and
> > > being
> > > > > ministered to.. I'm not just talking about the up front people
that
> >we
> > > > > might see every Sunday like the pastor or the worship teams. But
so
> > > that
> > > > > I
> > > > > don't get on a soap box, wonder what others of you think?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sure glad that we can assemble here on the net. The physical
> > > assembly
> > > > > is still, however, important.
> > > >
> > > > Of course it is important for us to meet together. Gods idea of us
> >meeting
> > > > together is that we grow and develop in relation ship to one another
and
> > > to
> > > > him. This an active process of interacting with each other in the
> >context
> > > of
> > > > our daily lives. When Jesus walked the earth he went and he taught
> >others
> > > to
> > > > be travelling around and fellowshipping with everyone as he went in
> >towns
> > > > and villages all over the country. (i.e. not the same group week in
week
> > > > out, that was never the intention or the model proposed)
> > > >
> > > > ah now, this is a bit of a "sacred cow" of the church and so I would
> >like
> > > to
> > > > present an alternative idea.... consider for a moment all of the
great
> >men
> > > > and women of God over the past centuries who have had their faith
> > > developed
> > > > and cemented and their fellowship with Christ blessed through harsh
> > > > experiences such as prison for example. Not that I am advocating
> >solitary
> > >
> > > > confinement as the way forward I am just pointing out that many of
the
> > > most
> > > > productive times in which God works on our characters and brings
forth
> > > > spirutual growth and maturity tend to be those times when we are in
the
> > > > wilderness, often times when we are on our own. Can you agree?
> > > >
> > > > If a hot coal is removed from a fire grate and is all on its own
then it
> > > > will get cold. Have you heard this one? But it is not neccessarily
true.
> > > If
> > > > the fire in the fire-place is not going very well at all, it is
dying
> >and
> > > > turning to ashes, and the Lord Jesus picks up a struggling hurting
coal
> > > from
> > > > the fringes, the edge of the fire. It is a whole different story if
the
> > > Lord
> > > > Jesus picks that coal up and places it in the middle of a blow torch
> > > flame.
> > > >
> > > > thats the place to be, even if it is lonely, a little uncomfortable,
and
> > > > hot!
> > > >
> > > > yours in Christ
> > > >
> > > > Keith
> > > >
> > >
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