I think "fuck off" pretty much describes your sentiments and how you
feel about me. No need to write another whole post describing
yourself.
This disagreement has blown up into a huge mess, and there are a
lot of hard feelings on both sides. And don't tell me there isn't
either, else you'd never sent me a message saying "fuck off".
Call me a liar, hypocrite, whatever you like. Maybe I am, who knows?
As far as being removed from the list goes, you've totally missed
my point entirely, as you have so often before. I did not say you
were going to throw me off, but there's nothing saying you can't go
and ask the list managers for my removal, and that's what I was
referring to.
I guess if I sat here and wrote a treatise on how terrible Arabs
are you'd feel better. You seem to want to talk about how bad Arabs
are, yet, you rightly, wouldn't be too happy if someone came out
defaming all Gambians, because of the actions of some. So why is it
OK to defame all Arabs, because some Arabs may have owned slaves, or
some Arabs may have contributed to the racial climate in Latin
America?
You know? Forget all of this trying to explain myself. OK? I
concede, Arabs are evil racist people who subjugated Africans and used
them as slaves. And while we're on it, white people, are evil to.
And Anson Musselman and Carlos Moore never said Islam had anything to
do with it.
And I'm a liar, hypocrite, pretending to be something I'm not.
And maybe I should have kept all the crap up on my blog. I'll see if
I can find it. Hmmm. how honest do you want me to be? Would you like
me to divulge how I came to Islam, or would you like me to tell you
all the gorry details of my abusive marriage? Oh, but I guess my
lying hypocritical nature brought that on me! So I guess I deserved
what I got coming to me!?
I mean, if you want me to be honest, I'll be honest! Where
exactly would you like me to start!?
OK, I'm really angry now, and I've pretty much been angry ever
sense the implicit comparison between Jammeh's outward displays of
religious piety were compared with women who choose to wear hijab.
So, if you'd like me to be "honest" and lay my whole life out
there for all to see, just let me know where you wwant me to start!
On 7/30/05, Amadu Kabir Njie <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Before I begin I'll just clarify another of your lies; I did not write you a
> private message, I responded to a private message you sent to me and there's
> nothing in my response other than: "Fuck Off!!!"
>
> The message I responded to was sent not to the list but to me directly and
> you see my response.
>
> Now, I call you a hypocrite and a liar because despite clarifying several
> times that my point of argument was Arab-Latino racism you insisted on
> puttinng words in my mouth. When you did not succeed you ran off to
> like-minded idiots to distort my message and came back here with an equally
> idiotic response from one of them.
>
> You can cry and whimper all you want but if you lie about me (accusing me of
> defaming Islam) I am coming hard on you.
>
> You have a habit of accusing Gambians of everything under the sun when you
> are told the truth in your face; one time putting all that crap about us on
> your Blog only to remove it again after some days.
>
> Why do you have to attack Gambians in general when you disagree with one?
>
> About my going behind the scenes behind your back, that is not my style, I
> say what I mean in the open. When you wrote that nonesense on your Blog and
> was convinced no Gambian will ever want to have anything to do with you ever
> again, it was I who requested for you to be subscribed here on Gambia-L.
> Eventhough I read through all that nonesense, I did not hold it against
> you.
>
> As you seem to be an expert in distorting what people say, I'll repeat this
> for you again. What I said about removal from the list was: If you insist on
> lying about me, I'll be removed from this list soon as I am not going to
> stand by and watch you lie about me. Got that into your thick skull? Since
> when did that translate into asking for your removal? I am not and have
> never been a list manager so I don't have that authority inspite of your
> convuluted reasoning.
>
> As per not agreeing with me, I never asked you to agree with me. What I
> asked is that you don't lie about what I said or did not say. I don't like
> liars, never have, never will.
>
> I f you think you have finally found sanctuary in your new-found faith, the
> least you can do is to adhere to it's most basic teneth, truthfullness and
> honesty.
>
> Kabir.
>
> Ginny Quick <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hello...
>
> Ginny!
>
> Your hypocricy and double standards are becoming more and more
> apparent. After repeating for the hundreth time that I was talking
> about 'Arab and Latino
> Racism' and when you could not quote more mentioning Muslims you
> forward this garbage here accusing me of blaming Islam?
>
> How am I being hypocritical or how am I using double standards? the
> mistake I made was attributing quotes to Moore, that should have been
> atributed to Musselman. But I stand by my original assertions and
> reactions to the article. As far as how others view your opinion of
> the article, I could invite them to subscribe, but why would I do
> that, and subject them to the personal attacks to which you've decided
> to subject me to, just because I won't back down, and declare how evil
> the Arabs are.
>
> Tell that idiot to learn to read or subscribe her to the list so that
> I can respond to her directly and stop playing your hypocricy games.
>
>
> I find it funny that when people don't agree with you, and they stand
> their ground, and they don't back down, how some people will resort to
> name-calling and tarnishing of their character, just because they
> don't change their minds and begin to share those people's opinions.
> .
>
> What other response did you expect when you forward my piece to a buch
> of idiots and hypocrites like yourself than to accuse me of blaming
> Islam when I
> was talking baout Arab racism? And you call yourselves Muslims?
>
>
> I at least expected something more mature than this childish rant
> that you've decided to publish! I think the article, whether it was
> Moore doing the quoting, or Musselman, used the terms Arab and Muslim
> synonymously, and thus, it's difficult to conclude whether or not they
> were blaming Arab culture or Islam for the problems of racism in Latin
> America. There seemed to be an implicit demonization of Arabs and
> Muslims, for the problem of slavery and racism in Latin America, as if
> * all Arabs * or * all Muslims * had something to do with it, or had a
> hand in it. That's what I think. Now, you don't have to agree with
> me! But if you don't like or agree with my opinion then deal with it!
> Don't come here on this list and act like your character's been
> tarnished by a discussion and a series of messages!
>
> And as far as slavery goes, didn't Africans have slaves too? I
> mean, if we want to talk about slavery... Were Africans exempt from
> this institution too? I mean, didn't Africans participate in both the
> Arab and Trans-Atlantic slave trade as well? Or do we not want to
> talk about that? Maybe it's easier to just "blame the other guy", and
> villify and demonize them.
>
> If you keep up your nonesense I'll soon be removed from this list
> because I am not going to standby and watch you lie about me and I
> promise you I am not
> going to mince my words.
>
>
> Oh? How have I lied about you? What have I said? Your words have
> done the talking for you. And what's this about you're not going to
> minse your words? Am I supposed to be afraid of you, go running off
> into a corner somewhere? Am I supposed to be afraid of you
> unsubscribing from the list? Are you going to go behind the scenes
> and talk to the moderators and have me thrown off? And am I supposed
> to be afraid of that?
>
> It's funny how people want to talk about Jammeh, and how
> hypocritical he is, yet they turn around and do some of the same
> things, hmmm, let's see, like threatening other people. "I'm not
> going to minse my words?" Hmmm, so aain what does that mean? What
> are you going to do to me? I'm guessing next you're going to send
> Jammeh all the way over here to intimidate me, seeing as how now
> you're adopting some of his tactics of name-calling and threatening
> other people. And if I do end up getting thrown off the list, I'm not
> going to lose too much sleep over it. I'm starting to understand more
> clearly now, why Gambians cannot get themselves out of the political
> and economic quagmire in which they now find themselves...
>
> I can only guess what your private message to me, which I've not read
> yet, is going to say...
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/30/05, Amadu Kabir Njie wrote:
> > Ginny!
> >
> > Your hypocricy and double standards are becoming more and more apparent.
> > After repeating for the hundreth time that I was talking about 'Arab and
> > Latino Racism' and when you could not quote more mentioning Muslims you
> > forward this garbage here accusing me of blaming Islam?
> >
> > Tell that idiot to learn to read or subscribe her to the list so that I
> can
> > respond to her directly and stop playing your hypocricy games.
> >
> > What other response did you expect when you forward my piece to a buch of
> > idiots and hypocrites like yourself than to accuse me of blaming Islam
> when
> > I was talking baout Arab racism? And you call yourselves Muslims?
> >
> > If you keep up your nonesense I'll soon be removed from this list because
> I
> > am not going to standby and watch you lie about me and I promise you I am
> > not going to mince my words.
> >
> > Kabir.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ginny Quick wrote:
> > Hello, another response to this discussion from an African-American
> > Muslim woman. BTW, I'd wanted to get input from other African or
> > African-American Muslims on this issue, since Islam was brought into
> > the discussion. And I feel I'm straying into an area that I just
> > don't know that much about. The post follows:
> >
> > Ginny, I must say that your response to Kabir was excellent.
> > Obviously, Kabir wants to blame Islam and as you rightfully put it, no
> > matter what you say
> > or do, he will continue to blame Islam.
> >
> > The article I felt was weak in trying to make this connection. But
> > the blame Islam game is very popular today. If someone wear to ask me
> > as an African
> > American how do I feel about the fact that Muslims owned slaves, I
> > would say this...
> >
> > Name one race of people that did not practice one form of oppression
> > or slavery on another? In Europe, Europeans owned slaves but it was
> > called serfdom,
> > but you were tied to the land that you worked, you couldn't free
> > yourself of the debt that you owed the feudal lords and your family
> > would inherit the
> > same position that you were in. That's almost identical to Black
> > slaves in America where if your grandfather was a slave, you were
> > automatically a slave.
> >
> > When I read Kabir's comments, I kept thinking, "People who live in
> > glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Is he not aware of the fact
> > that Africans owned
> > other Africans? Is he willing to admit that some Africans sold other
> > Africans into slavery or that Arabs owned other Arabs. Kabir must
> > think that people
> > only owned slaves of races different than their own but that's not
> > true. Whether it is race, tribal status, religion, skin color, etc,
> > there has always
> > been a mechanism in power to keep one group on top and the other on
> > the bottom. Will he not address a very modern form of slavery called
> > sweatshop work
> > where people work for 14 hours a day non-stop, sometimes at gunpoint,
> > for 10 cents a day (or a week in some places). How does Islam play
> > into that?
> >
> > Every race of people at one time or another was the oppressor or the
> > oppressed and as much as Kabir may not realize this, Christian, Muslim
> > and Jewish Africans
> > and Arabs owned slaves. No one is free of this since slavery is an
> > institution that goes back into the days of early human history but if
> > he is content
> > to lay it all at the feet of Islam with these glaring facts before
> > him, well that's just denial.
> >
> > I am sorry if I sound so cynical and none of my annoyance is directed
> > at any sister on this group but rather at these people who want to
> > blame all the ills
> > of the world on Islam. Kabir and others would be better off studying
> > the history of Black Islamic figures like Bilah ibn Rabah, Nana
> > Asma'u, El-Hajj Malik
> > al-Shabazz, Muhammad Ali, Amadou Bamba, Usman dan Fodio, Umar Tal and
> > others (may God bless them all and keep them).
> >
> >
> > On 7/30/05, Amadu Kabir Njie wrote:
> > > Ginny,
> > >
> > > Thanks for making an attempt to quote Moore where he equated Arabs and
> > > Islam, but it seems to me that you are ascribing to him things that he
> > did
> > > not say at all.
> > >
> > > What you showed in quotes and ascribed to Moore are the words of Anson
> > > Musselman and not Moore. Where Anson Musselman directly quoted Moore
> the
> > > words are in quotation marks. Go back and read the article. The
> following
> > > are comments by Anson Musselman as preamble to the article:
> > >
> > > "...The Arab Model
> > >
> > > Moore in his youth set out to find what historical
> > > events led to the establishment of a racial hierarchy
> > > in Latin America, where race mixing is the norm, yet
> > > lightness and darkness of skin still matters. His
> > > findings led him to believe that the paradigms of race
> > > in Latin America are directly descended from the time
> > > when Arabs controlled the Iberian Peninsula, the
> > > homeland of Spanish and Portuguese colonialism in the
> > > Americas.
> > >
> > > Arabs successfully invaded the Iberian Peninsula
> > > (today Spain and Portugal) in 711 CE. The Moorish
> > > culture that was established was known as Andalusia.
> > > By the late 1200s Christian armies had expelled the
> > > majority of Muslims from Iberia...."
> > >
> > > Then he goes on to quote Moore and note that this is in quotation marks
> > in
> > > the original piece:
> > > "I have had the privilege to have lived in Arab
> > > countries," Moore said, "and to be shocked by the
> > > extraordinary similarities to Latin America of
> > > structures of race in countries like Egypt. It was
> > > familiar ground. I was twenty-one, had just left Cuba.
> > > I lived in Egypt for a year. I was surprised to see
> > > how it was as though I had not left Cuba except for
> > > the fact that they spoke Arabic and adhered to the
> > > Muslim religion. From then on I began to study the
> > > structures of race relations in the Arab countries in
> > > a comparative way with relations in the Iberian
> > > Peninsula and Latin America. That became my focus."
> > >
> > > The rest of the piece consists of a series of comments by Anson
> Musselman
> > > himself and quotes from Moore.
> > > Even though the word Islam is mentioned, nowhere is it directly quoted
> > from
> > > Moore's.
> > >
> > > Again, the gist of Moore's lecture was 'Arab and Latino racism'.
> Period!
> > He
> > > was not even misquoted using Arab and Islam interchangeably, in fact he
> > was
> > > never quoted using the word 'Islam'.
> > >
> > > Since you keep harping about being compared to Yaya Jammeh I would be
> > glad
> > > if you can let me know who compared you with him. I wrote:
> > >
> > > "...For me one is not religious or God-fearing by merely wearing their
> > > religion on their sleeve. If it should be so, Yaya Jammeh would be one
> of
> > > the most religious people in the whole world, for he sports a rosary
> > > longer than that of Ayatolah Khomeni and dresses like the Sultan of
> > > Sokoto...."
> > >
> > > If you see yourself in this remark it's fine by me.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Kabir
> > >
> > >
> > > Ginny Quick wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Ginny Quick wrote:The following is the first quote where
> > > he mentions "Muslims".
> > >
> > > >Arabs successfully invaded the Iberian Peninsula
> > > >(today Spain and Portugal) in 711 CE. The Moorish
> > > >culture that was established was known as Andalusia.
> > > >By the late 1200s Christian armies had expelled the
> > > >majority of Muslims from Iberia.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What is interesting to me, is that first, he mentions how "Arabs"
> > > conquered the Iberian Peninsula, but in the last sentence, says how
> > > "Muslims", were driven out by the Christian armies? Being that he
> > > seems to be using the two words "Arab" and "Muslim" interchangeably,
> > > who is the one confusing "Arab" with "Muslim". Or else, were there
> > > Arabs left over after the "Muslims" were driven out?
> > >
> > > Also he goes on to say:
> > >
> > > >I lived in Egypt for a year. I was surprised to see
> > > >how it was as though I had not left Cuba except for
> > > >the fact that they spoke Arabic and adhered to the
> > > >Muslim religion. From then on I began to study the
> > > >structures of race relations in the Arab countries in
> > > >a comparative way with relations in the Iberian
> > > >Peninsula and Latin America. That became my focus."
> > >
> > > While the vast majority of people in Egypt were Muslims, what is
> > > the point of bringing up Islam here? If he's only talking about Arab
> > > culture, why bring up religion? There seems to be an underlying
> > > assumption here, by him, not me, that Muslim = Arab, because he
> > > himself seems to be using the two words interchangeably, in at least
> > > one part of the article.
> > >
> > > >Moore sees the export of Arab-model slavery and race
> > > >relations to the New World by the Spanish and
> > > >Portuguese, who had absorbed it during the Muslim
> > > >occupation of Iberia.
> > >
> > > OK, again, he's using the two words "Arab" and "Muslim"
> > > interchangeably. First, he talks about the "Arab Model" of slavery,
> > > and then talks about the "Muslim occupation" of the Iberian Peninsula.
> > > If there was a difference between "Arab" and "Muslim", he should have
> > > pointed it out. Or, why not use the phrase "the Arab occupation"?
> > > Whatever the case,he did mention "Muslims" and "Islam", so I think my
> > > reading comprehension is quite good, thank you very much.
> > >
> > > "The conquest of America begins
> > > >when the Arabs are expelled from this part of the
> > > >world by Europeans."
> > >
> > > And here, he definitely confirms my point, that he's using the
> > > words "Arab" and "Muslim" interchangeably, so I'd like to know who is
> > > getting the two terms confused? I don't think it's me! It's also
> > > interesting to know that he also uses the terms "Christian" and
> > > "European" interchangeably as well.
> > >
> > > Later on in the article, he goes on further to say that:
> > >
> > > In Arab
> > > >societies there are all sorts of ranks. There are
> > > >infidels, those who are believers, and the mulatto
> > > >category which is viewed as a ladder for ascension."
> > > >
> > >
> > > What is he talking about here? When he mentions "infidels", who
> > > is he talking about? Or Believers? Believers in what? Given that
> > > he's already used the term "Muslim" and Arab" interchangeably, I'd
> > > have to conclude that he's referring to Muslim belief?
> > >
> > > As far as the points he makes regarding race relations
> > > themselves, I have no argument with what he has to say about that, in
> > > and of itself. It's the seeming way that he uses "Arab" and "Muslim"
> > > as if they mean the same thing, that I think I, and the other lady,
> > > whose comments I posted, had a problem with. I don't think either one
> > > of us were trying to insinuate that "Arab" and "Muslim" meant the same
> > > thing, or that we are confusing the two. In fact, it seems to be Mr.
> > > Moore who is doing so. Not us!
> > >
> > > As far as the other "irrelevant" issues, I'd consider them "side
> > > issues", rather than "Irrelevant ones". Given the direction the
> > > discussion was going, or I should say, the direction that I chose to
> > > take the discussion, I feel the issues were relevant, else I'd not
> > > have brought them up.
> > >
> > > I still think it's funny that I've been compared to Jammeh, not
> > > only because of any outward religiosity or piety on my part, but also
> > > because, since I didn't understand the article, in the same way that
> > > you did, that my intelligence, comprehension, and even my honesty has
> > > been called into question.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
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