> Back to Jean-Claude:
> > it is simple,  plant this squash in a natural ecosystem situation and in
> no
> > time this squash is going to revert to a wild form as any other
> domesticated
> > crops
>
> I would like to see consistent proof of that. If that were true, then even
> nature's "experiments", if they followed your baseline equilibrium
> theorums, would eventually revert to their original versions.
Bio-diversity
> would not exist.

you can takes my words for it , i have been practicing natural farming for
10 years and have seen it happenning consistently .

nature's experiments have the potential to establish themselves as the new
form because all the parameters of change are present and not the only human
desire of changing a particular trait as in the case of selectivelly
breeding domesticated crops .HUman desires don't have the same intelligence
that nature's necessities .

   the proof of that is that human have to work hard to maintain artificial
conditions to maintain the domesticated form . when this plant is reexposed
to the global infuence of the wild world it got to becomes more reasonable
in its traits so it have to revert to a more wild form to fit all the
parameters of its survival .

nature is obviouslly not static but the total of the circonstances of one
species is inherently creating lot of inertia for changes , mutations have
to prove themselves to perdure .
>
> > because of the phenomeneon rediscovered by instinctive eating
>
> I swear, Jean-Claude, your subjective arguments remind me of people trying
> to prove the validity of the Bible by quoting passages from the Bible
about
> it's validity.

i will personally not discuss the validity of experience someone get from
reading the bible . It don't do anything to me for the simple reason i never
made the effort to read it myself . the validity of the experience is in the
experience not in some  outside evaluation of it or intellectual reasonning
about it .
the proof is in the cake .takes a bite .
>
> > By experience i learned that  farther a food is  from its wild origin
and
> > less this regulation of eating works leading us to excesses.
>
> Again, you are skirting my question. How do you *know* that the
> modification of a food, by *us*, is not nature's intent? (Or, maybe I
> should say, "the end result of some natural balancing process unfathomable
> by human beings :) You're only argument being that *you* cannot eat it
> instictively?

that is a big question ! there is way of knowing that by pass the cortex .
it have to do with our experiental , sensual being .

you refuse to yourself the chance of experiencing the obvious difference in
responses to the wild taste and the domesticated form once you eliminate
drastically all attempts to trick , deceive your senses about the true taste
of food ( thru seasonning,  cooking , mixing et... If you did you will knows
that one leave the body unsatisfied while the other have the potential for
the worse or the better depending on your metabolic needs for it   . The
chronic malnutition  that ensue is may be part of the plan to help us get
motivated to create exponentially more and  more inventions to feel fulfill
.
>
> >> Perhaps
> >> nature wanted our species to increase and flourish by gaining control
of
> >> the ecosystem to "some" degree.
>
> > The point is that it doen't stop at "some degree"
>
> Not, that's not the point. Nor is it the answer to the question I asked.
It
> is the same kind of reply I expect from a politician who wants to answer
> *his* question rather than my question.

oh because this > >> Perhaps nature wanted our species to increase and
flourish by gaining control of
> >> the ecosystem to "some" degree., is a question .

may be ?  but you have to accept that the destruction of  diverse ecosystems
is the wanted outcome of gaining control over it if the "some" degree is not
the point .Or do you denied it is happenning .?

> As I pointed out previously, nature's elimination of species makes us look
> like amateurs.

you are mistaking   the scale in time of the past and present species
extinction . do you believe one minute that the present rate of species
extinction is a natural renewal of forms of life.? did dinosaurs got extinct
in few years ?
it is a symptom of desertification of the planet . it is  a shift toward
human biomass . unless we can  create  and maintain  radical new ways of
substenance .... it is not going to last . lets keep trust in progress. for
my part i have seen enough of the cost of the "progress" we made to knows it
is not going to be for the better .
>
> > how comes our created plants are dependant on so much labor and energy
to
> > maintain themselves alive and that the rest of the wild is not accepting
> > them if nature is in accord with humans abherations ?
>
> "Created" plants (I assume you are referring to different types of
hybrids)
> do not require any more labor or energy than any other plant. The system
of
> "industial" agriculture does. But, there are forms of agriculture that use
> much less labor and energy than "industrial" agriculture, and very likely
> less labor and energy intensive than simple gathering.

you got to not  have much experience in  gardenning ! i can grow kale
without effort but to get a cauliflower produce something marketable require
some more special attention and care .
>
> > we are creating seedless varieties of fruits that are unable to
reproduce
> on
> > their own .
>
> Sigh. Now we get to the "slippery slope" argument - the assumption that if
> we "do" anything, it will lead down the Road to Perdition. Ooops, we're
> there already. I would suggest we find a solution, but that might lead to
> "do"ing something, and....

you can't resolve a problem with the same mind set that created it in the
first place .
yes i believe the choices made of controlling nature have led us to be out
of control. IT was never necessarry nor unavoidable . Once facing
impossibilities and hitting some walls ( limit to elasticity of natural
phenomenons ,) we will naturally let go of control. so we agree it is all
"natural".(at least in the mechanisms involved if not in the intent)

we are in the same situation than an alcoholic , it will takes to fall to
the bottom to desire to seek recovery .
in the mean time keep the feast going .

jean-claude


>