Personally I don't call myself Calvinist, chauvinist or whatever, hope I
live up to that one lol. I just read the word, when I don't understand
something I search the dictionaries for more meaning, and find
encouragement in those who I know have studied God's word longer than I,
and rely on the Holy Spirit to instruct me on what his word ought speak to
me. The way I see it, God told us we can choose blessinig or cursing, life
or death? And even give us a clue to choose life? No we cannot be so vain
as to say we choose Christ so we are saved. It is like I said, most do not
realize that we are, no matter what, in the mercy seat. And if it is a
realization, who realizes it? We can no more take credit for saving
ourselves, even in our decision to follow Christ and find salvation in his
sacrifice, than we can helping someone realize or find Christ, or as many
say... lead them to the Lord. If I do that, did I save them? Hardly. I see
scripture saying I can be grafted in, and I can be cut off. That is enough
for me.

Brad



John Schwery wrote:
>Brad, I believe that living for Him is another issue.  As someone else
>mentioned earlier, not living for Him causes us to lose our
>effectiveness.  I don't believe that we can do our own thing, as it were,
>but I don't believe that living for Him saves us.  I am a Calvinist, so I
>don't believe that we choose Christ.  If that is the case, we can praise
>ourselves for choosing Him and saving ourselves.  I like to call what you
>call, choosing Him, more of a realization.  Our realizing, or choosing, is
>a part of salvation but I believe that God gives us the will and desire to
>do that realizing or choosing.  No, we cannot sin and get away with
>it.  whom the Lord loves, He chastens.
>
>earlier, BD, wrote:
> >John,
> >
> >If he is not talking about individuals, but rather a group, then I could
> >then not worry about grafting into anything, do my own thing,  as I'll be
> >swept in by default? Who makes up the Jews and gentiles? It is not a simple
> >label of a people, but the people, the individuals who make up that label.
> >Just as a church is not brick and mortar, but the people are the
> >church.  You are exactly right, we do not have the ability to save
> >ourselves as we do indeed fall short of the mark and without Christ's
> >sacrifice we are doomed, but that still does not give anyone license to
> >negate God's absolute just in our response and freedom to choose him or
> >not. Are you saying then that God will save a person after they have come
> >to him, they then in turn willfully turn their backs and ways, their trust,
> >their faith, and live life unto themselves, and yet God says that is OK
> >with him? Does that sound like a God of absolutes?  It is OK for them to
> >use the sacrifice of God for their own eye service as it suits them for the
> >moment? Do we then, as Jews or gentiles, have any part to play in bringing
> >us to a point of mercy's grasp? Are we saved without coming to him? Do we
> >have a choice in the matter? Does that choice lead us closer to him, or
> >farther from him, or doesn't it matter? We cannot save ourselves, yet it is
> >a requirement we choose him over ourselves, the world or any other god, and
> >accept Christ's sacrifice. Do we, as humans, have the ability to change our
> >minds? To change our beliefs? What is the difference between an atheist and
> >an agnostic? One believes in no God, and the other doesn't believe in
> >anything. As far as salvation goes, there is no difference. If one chooses
> >Christ, lives for Christ, but then strays, and no longer lives with Christ
> >as center of his/her life, are they in belief? As far as I see Jesus even
> >said there would be those who did things for the good of the church, cast
> >out demons and etc. but with wrong agendas,  They will say "Lord, Lord.
> >Look all we have done in your name." And he'll say "Go away doers of
> >inequity. I never knew you"> If he says that to those who did good works
> >for wrong agendas, how much more just is he to do same for those who live
> >for themselves with those same agendas?  What people fail to see is even by
> >our choice to choose Christ, it is still an act of grace and mercy we are
> >saved. People make mistakes, they screw up, we all do.  and it is by grace
> >and mercy that we then are saved too, but it is the contents, the aim, the
> >agenda, the desire, the motive, the intentions of our heart that makes the
> >difference. Those that live for Christ have evidence he is living in them.
> >I suppose this is an age old topic, but  I myself would not risk my grace
> >and mercy of salvation by choosing to not live more for him daily as a rule.
> >
> >Brad
> >
> >Brad
> >
> >
> >
> > >Brad, I do not believe that this is talking about an individual's
> > >salvation, but rather the Jews and Gentiles.  If salvation depended upon
> > >our keeping it, no one would be saved because all have sinned and come
> > >short of the glory of God.
> > >
> > >earlier, BD, wrote:
> > > >John,
> > > >
> > > >Romans 11:18-24
> > > >"do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant,
> remember
> > > >that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You
> > > >will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
> > > >Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by
> > your
> > > >faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the
> natural
> > > >branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and
> > > >severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's
> kindness,
> > > >if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And
> > > >they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be
> grafted in,
> > > >for God is able to graft them in again.  For if you were cut off
> from what
> > > >is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature
> into a
> > > >cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural
> > > >branches be grafted into their own olive tree?"
> > > >
> > > >I read this as if we do not continue in him, we will be cut off. I
> > find God
> > > >to be one that is kind yes but also just, and it is unjust to lay
> his son
> > > >on the cross, and have it soiled by a person come to Christ, say he is
> > > >saved, then return to his old ways and bringing a mockery to the
> > sacrifice.
> > > >The argument is always, "Well then he was not saved in the first place".
> > > >That is for God to judge, but I can't see him  giving eternal life to
> > those
> > > >no longer trusting, obeying, and holding him as Lord over their
> lives. But
> > > >I can see him returning that eternal life to them if they return to
> > > >submitting Lordship of Christ... just as the scripture indicates
> above. I
> > > >also believe that John 3:16 is not a one time deal and that a continual
> > > >believing, continual trust, continual faith, is what brings
> salvation, not
> > > >a one time occurrence.
> > > >
> > > >Curious of your thoughts.
> > > >
> > > >Brad
> > >
> > >John
> > >
> > >    Democracy is three wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for
> > supper
> >
> >Brad
> >
> >    To forgive is to set the prisoner free, and then discover the prisoner
> >was you
>
>John
>
>    Democracy is three wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper

Brad

   A successful relationship isn't finding the right person; it's being the
right person