Vinny, you said:
  It is also like the question about our eternal salvation.  I think the
bible is pretty equal with scriptures which say we can or we can't lose it.

Perhaps, I'm missing something, and, I admit, that I am prejudiced on the
side of the doctrine of the security of the believer, but I don't know of
any clear passages that teach that one can lose his salvation.  I realize
that there is a common teaching that one can lose salvation, but if memory
serves me right, the passages that teach that teaching are either problem
passages or passages that are not clear.

earlier, vinny samarco, wrote:
>  It is also like the question about our eternal salvation.  I think the
>bible is pretty equal with scriptures which say we can or we can't lose it.

John

   When things just can't get any worse, they will !