Good points in this e-mail Matt.  I was looking at longevity amongst
bodybuilders earlier this year and there certainly seem to be many from the
1930's, 40's and 50's (even 1920's) who are still around and still in great
shape.  John Grimek died recently in his 80's and in good shape. These guys
were mainly pre-supplement era and into milk and meat etc for the most part
but I would guess their diets varied a lot.  Bodybuilding was perhaps the
common thread. Use it or lose it.

Sean McBride



Sean McBride
University of Queensland
Brisbane, Australia
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Subject: EVOLUTIONARY-FITNESS Digest - 13 Feb 2003 to 14 Feb 2003 (#2003-22)


> There are 6 messages totalling 235 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
>   1. A grain of salt
>   2. Carb consumption (was NHE)
>   3. EVOLUTIONARY-FITNESS Digest - 11 Feb 2003 to 13 Feb 2003 (#2003-21)
(2)
>   4. EVOLUTIONARY-FITNESS Digest - 11 Feb 2003 to 13 Fe...
>   5. NHE
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date:    Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:10:28 -0500
> From:    Matt Metzgar <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: A grain of salt
>
> I see where there are a few posts regarding post-workout meals and
DeVany's
> take on this.  This leads me to an important point I would like to make.
>
> Is it possible we are all taking Devany's suggestions too seriously?  In
> other words, even though Art appears to have some good ideas, where's the
> corresponding research?  I have not seen Art citing any empirical studies
> to support his hypotheses.  I made sure to list all the necessary
citations
> in my book, and Loren Cordain lists a ton of research in his.  So far, it
> seems Art has mentioned very few, if any, studies to support his
particular
> hypotheses.
>
> It may be possible that Art is just a "genetic marvel", and his success is
> not primarily caused by evolutionary fitness.  For example, Roy Hilligen,
a
> former Mr. America, still sports a great physique at age 77.  He also says
> he has been a lifelong vegetarian.  So clearly, Paleo eating and
exercising
> are not the ONLY way to stay in great shape:
>
> http://www.cbass.com/Hilligenn.htm
>
> I think Art has some good ideas concerning evolutionary fitness.  But
> unless he finishes his book and/or provides some empirical evidence for
his
> hypotheses, I believe these ideas should be taken with a grain of salt.
> Plenty of things sound good in the abstract; but we should be skeptical if
> there continues to be a lack of research supporting them.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:22:15 -0500
> From:    "Krikorian, Robert (KRIKORR)" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Carb consumption (was NHE)
>
> Matt Metzgar wrote:
> [snip]
> >You claim carbohydrates aren't needed for energy, yet the NHE cycles
carbs
> in.  If they aren't
> >necessary, why not go lower-carb all the time?  My idea is that a certain
> level of carbohydrate intake is needed for energy >in the modern world.
> Whether you get that through a higher daily intake of carbs, or by
> carb-loading every few days (NHE),  >may not be important.  What I am
saying
> is that some minimum level of carbohydrates seems necessary for optimal
> functioning, >and that level can be difficult to obtain through Paleo
eating
> (primarily due to the large volume of fruits and vegetables   >that need
to
> be eaten).
>
> Fruits and vegetables ARE composed of carbohydrates primarily.  Not sure
if
> this statement was a mistake or you intended to mean foods like pasta,
> grains, and processed sugars.
>
> In any case, as has been stated several times previously, humans can
survive
> very well on very low carbohydrate diets.  However, a primary reason to
eat
> vegetables and fruits in optimizing one's diet (aide from the need to
> acquire calories beyond protein and fat requirements) is to obtain
> antioxidant nutrients, minerals, and fiber.
>
> -Robert.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:10:49 +0000
> From:    Robert Wolf <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: EVOLUTIONARY-FITNESS Digest - 11 Feb 2003 to 13 Feb 2003
(#2003-21)
>
> One needs adequate muscle glycogen to perform high intensity activities
> which shift one into the ATP/CP axis...in this sense it is true that one
> requires carbs.  This has nothing to do with a modern development however
as
> Hg's typically lived at more than 2x BMR....modern humans do not. This is
> much of the problem activity AND diet patterns have diverged from the
> ancestral paramaters.  So, there is no contradiction here.  At lower and
> lower MET the need for carbohydrate drops essentially to zero as
> gluconeogenesis can more than adequately provide for the carbohydrates
> needed in the pentose-phosphate pathway, posttranslational modifications
to
> proteins, and the glycolipid moites which constitute cellular reconition.
> The mosern lifestyle you mention is lacking in rest and  intense activity
> while being excessive in chronic stress.  None of these factors benefit
from
> MORE carbohydrates.
>
> With regard to the inadequacy of the paleo diet, once one has fully
> replenished glycogen stores (both hepatic and muscluar) additional carbs
> will be stored as fat...in a hyperinsulinemic condition this may happen
even
> before glycogen loading.  You assert that it is difficult or impossible to
> meet these nees on a paleo diet.  A 200lb man can store a maximum of about
> 400 gm of carbs as glycogen. One need only to eat an apple and orange at
> each of three standard feedings and then a single piece of fruit at say
two
> snacks to reach 3/4 of this 400gm point. One can also follow a program
like
> NHE which lumps all the carbs into a few feedings.
>
> So it may just be a matter of agreeing to disagree...but I can really see
no
> benefit from adding additional carbs into a modern living pattern.  I also
> see no problem whatsoever in obtaining adequate nutrition from a paleo
diet.
>
> Just to be clear, one needs carbs to perform high intensity activity
(ATP/CP
> pathway) they do not need carbs to work long hours sitting behind a desk
or
> some other very demanding but low intensity activity.
> Robb
>
>
> >Date:    Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:56:29 -0500
> >From:    Matt Metzgar <[log in to unmask]>
> >Subject: Re: NHE
> >
> >Robb/Keith,
> >
> >I wanted to make a few points.  First, I have read Lights Out and cited
it
> >in my book.  Second, I also emphasize variety in my training, and
emphasize
> >it in my book as well.
> >
> >It also seems like you are contradicting yourself.  You claim
carbohydrates
> >aren't needed for energy, yet the NHE cycles carbs in.  If they aren't
> >necessary, why not go lower-carb all the time?  My idea is that a certain
> >level of carbohydrate intake is needed for energy in the modern world.
> >Whether you get that through a higher daily intake of carbs, or by carb-
> >loading every few days (NHE), may not be important.  What I am saying is
> >that some minimum level of carbohydrates seems necessary for optimal
> >functioning, and that level can be difficult to obtain through Paleo
eating
> >(primarily due to the large volume of fruits and vegetables that need to
be
> >eaten).
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:43:40 EST
> From:    Bob Fritz <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: EVOLUTIONARY-FITNESS Digest - 11 Feb 2003 to 13 Fe...
>
> In a message dated 2/13/2003 2:11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
>
> >  regard to the inadequacy of the paleo diet, once one has fully
> > replenished glycogen stores (both hepatic and muscluar) additional carbs
> > will be stored as fat...in a hyperinsulinemic condition this may happen
> > even
> > before glycogen loading.  You assert that it is difficult or impossible
to
> > meet these nees on a paleo diet.  A 200lb man can store a maximum of
about
> > 400 gm of carbs as glycogen. One need only to eat an apple and orange at
> > each of three standard feedings and
>
> Hepatic glycogen stores deplete rapidly, replete slowly.  Liver glycogen
is
> essentially zero upon waking, and is depleted quite rapidly during
exercise.
>  Muscle glycogen stores are more stable.  After a 24 hour fast, muscle
> glycogen is almost unchanged, liver glycogen very low.  Muscle and liver
> glycogen are quite different, and maximal storage of CHO in muscle is
easily
> achieved compared to liver. Liver glycogen is poorly refilled by glucose
> alone vs gluconeogenic precursors + glucose.  G. Brooks, McGarry and
others
> have done nice work regarding this area.  Tim Noakes also.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:18:30 -0500
> From:    rick strong <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: EVOLUTIONARY-FITNESS Digest - 11 Feb 2003 to 13 Feb 2003
(#2003-21)
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> From:    Matt Metzgar <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: NHE
> >
> > It also seems like you are contradicting yourself.  You claim
> carbohydrates
> > aren't needed for energy, yet the NHE cycles carbs in.  If they aren't
> > necessary, why not go lower-carb all the time?
>
> Rob Faigin very specifically states in NHE that continual carb restriction
> suppresses T3, a thyroid hormone, and suppresses metabolic rate, resulting
> in lack of progress and, ultimately, weight gain.  Re-read page 139.  When
I
> read the book, that propostion, above all others, jumped out at me.   Rick
> Strong (occasional poster;  attentive and devoted reader)
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:32:24 -0500
> From:    Keith Thomas <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: NHE
>
> Robb, Rick, Bob and Robert all make points I agree with.  I would just add
> that Rob Faigin focuses on the neuroendocrine responses to different
> exercise types (even specific exercises), recovery and different
> maconutrient intakes.  Faigin's recommendations concerning carbs need to
> be read in the light of his efforts to enhance the beneficial hormonal
> response for the best of health; this means he distinguishes between
> fructose and glucose and between carbs from starch, carbs from vegetables
> and carbs from fruit - broadly speaking.  His recommendations for
> occasional carb loading should be seen as recommendations to maximize the
> many beneficial effects of insulin surges rather than consuming carbs for
> the limited purpose of replenishing energy stores for use in physical
> activity.  To ignore Faigin 7s hormonal preoccupation is to interpret him
> on terms other than his own.
>
> As to Art DeVany's references, I shall say two things.  (1) Art is a
> widely published academic with a string of papers over many years as well
> as a strong record of teaching.  Art knows about references.  (2) The
> Origin of Species has a hundred or so references, but few are used in the
> modern way; Darwin uses them more as jumping off points for arguing his
> position, rather than as authorities to refer to for further information
> on a particular matter.  Weston Price cited few references; Daniel Quinn
> none.  I personally see Art's synthesis as right up there with these
> classics.  Since coming across his ideas, I have been driven to read
> widely on evolution, human evolution, natural selection and sexual
> selection, evolutionary psychology, prehistoric human diets, primate
> diets, exercise, epidemiology, complexity, e
> mergence and the social and
> physical environments in which these occur now and in which they evolved
> over millions of years.  I have picked up enough to know when someone is
> talking sense or nonsense.  Art talks sense.  Personally, I won't mind if
> there are no references in anything he might write; his work has already
> inspired me to learn enough to know where or how to explore further any
> claims he may make and to evaluate them critically.  And the most
> important thing he gives us is his synthesis: he is breaking new ground
> and there are no references to back up his synthesis.  I have no interest
> at all in the brand of glutathione he uses: it is the novel intellectual
> framework he contructs and the mode of enquiry he introduces which are his
> gifts; we can all fill in the pieces of this framework to suit ourselves
> and pursue the mode of enquiry according to our needs - and provide our
> own references along the way.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of EVOLUTIONARY-FITNESS Digest - 13 Feb 2003 to 14 Feb 2003 (#2003-22)
> **************************************************************************

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