Helen makes good points, here.  I believe Paul's judgment of people on this
list is harsh and cruel.  I have tried to give him the benefit of the
doubt, seeing he is not married and has not had children.  Thus, e I
believe that there is a lot he doesn't understand about the marriage
relationship or raising children.  Since he talked about Phil in his post,
I hope he sent Phil a copy.  Phil has tried drub treatment programs for his
daughter, if I remember correctly.  Chris has said that he has been seeing
professional counsellors, and I would think that if those counsellors felt
that Chris needed to be in a residential program, those counsellors would
have told that to him and his parents.  I am not saying that everything we
have done on this list is right, but I still feel that Paul's judgment of
us is harsh and self-righteous.

At 07:55 AM 1/14/04 -0500, you wrote:
>Paul, quoting you:
>
>So Phil gets his hammer and John gets his saw.  Pat gets her loving sewing
>kit and Helen gets her aspirin and all the rest contribute to your
>healing.  They start hacking
>and whacking away at you until you are a bleeding, painful mess and in your
>pain you go off confused and dazed and hurt others searching for help you
>were never allowed to be given because of your helpful friends  -end quote-
>
>This comment is bad enough, and as about as un-Christian as anything I have
>ever read.
>
>And quoting you again:
>
>I can no longer be a part of a group whose self-pride and
>self-righteousness is so strong that they will allow you to continue to
>come to them so they can feel like good Christians.  -end quote-
>
>But this judgmental accusation aimed at everyone but yourself, is the
>worst, and
>as long as you feel free to publicly chastise us, I feel it is our
>God-given right, and duty, to express our own reactions to your very
>uncalled-for rebuke.
>
>As you said, poor dear Chris will probably not even understand what you are
>saying.
>Then why did you address this to him?  Why did you not address it to the list?
>The message is clear, dear brother, and contains no spirit of God's Love,
>either to us or to Chris.
>
>Quoting you again:
>
>I will not post publicly for a while to ensure that it is not my own
>self-pride saying all of this.  -end quote-
>
>It is unfortunate that you did not ensure yourself of that before posting.
>
>Helen
>
>
>
>
>
>At 02:16 AM 1/14/04 -0500, you wrote:
> >Hey, Chris
> >
> >Imagine that you had a bad toothache and needed to see a dentist.  But your
> >loving friends are concerned the dentist will hurt you.  So Phil gets his
> >hammer and John gets his saw.  Pat gets her loving sewing kit and Helen gets
> >her aspirin and all the rest contribute to your healing.  They start hacking
> >and whacking away at you until you are a bleeding, painful mess and in your
> >pain you go off confused and dazed and hurt others searching for help you
> >were never allowed to be given because of your helpful friends.  In
> >Christian love, of course.  But what's wrong?  The tools are all good.  Of
> >course they are.  They've seen Matt build bird houses with them!  They know
> >they work.  The problem is, Chris, they don't know how to use those very
> >useful, very helpful tools to help you. Not in your case.
> >
> >I don't know if you even understand what I'm saying.  Apparently they don't.
> >When you were first on the list I begged them to stop feeding into your
> >problems because they were doing you more harm than good.  They just are not
> >qualified to give you the help you need.  And with every well intentioned
> >note they just set you off spinning again in ways that could harm you more
> >or cause you to harm others as you whizz off in some unknown direction they
> >can neither know nor control.  You left the list for a while and there was a
> >debate about whether to have you come back on.  I begged them not to do it
> >because, again, I thought you need more help than anyone here can give you.
> >In my personal and, yes, unprofessional, opinion (and I've told you this
> >publicly many times) you need the kind of help that can only come from a
> >residential program.  And the more people on this list feed into your need
> >for attention the less likely you will seek out that program.  What I never
> >realized until now is that if Phil didn't see it in his daughter's need for
> >a residential drug treatment center he wouldn't see it, and out of respect
> >or their own misguidance, others wouldn't see it either for her or for you.
> >
> >My point is, Chris, that you need help.  More help than we can give you.
> >And as long as you keep coming here you will not go there (to get the
> >counseling by competent people you can be with in person any time of the day
> >or night).  And all the prayers from all the world are not going to change
> >that.  It's irresponsible to try.  It's no better than being in a church
> >where there is a child with a gun and saying "If we treat him nice he won't
> >hurt himself or anybody else."  That is not right morally or ethically.
> >
> >I know, "I ! am ! mad ! I ! will ! quit ! the ! list !"  Don't bother,
> >Chris.  I am leaving the list.  (If I can remember how.  Laughing out loud.
> >If not, I'm sure Vicki will help me.)  I can no longer be a part of a group
> >whose self-pride and self-righteousness is so strong that they will allow
> >you to continue to come to them so they can feel like good Christians and
> >thereby risk you hurting yourself or others rather than encouraging you to
> >get off this list and get into that treatment center you need.
> >
> >I will not post publicly for a while to ensure that it is not my own
> >self-pride saying all of this.  (Unless Vicki decides to unsub me after this
> >note.)  So I'd hope any responses to this note will be to me privately.
> >Except yours, Chris.  I don't believe we have anything to say to each other
> >privately and am publicly posting this note so that neither you nor those
> >who call you or forward notes to you misquote me.  And, frankly, part of
> >your problem is misquoting other people.  I don't make innuendoes and then
> >publicly say I was misquoted when what I inferred is understood and
> >responded to as has been done on this list before.  I hope that, someday, if
> >they don't change the list name again...smile...you will get the treatment
> >you need, come back and read this note in the archives, and realize it was
> >out of concern for you and others that I wrote it.
> >
> >May you find the true healing that only comes through JESUS CHRIST through
> >the competent professionals He uses in His wisdom and knowledge as He used
> >Dr. Luke and wine for Timothy's stomach despite all of the apostles around
> >him.
> >
> >Paul

John

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