well, trish you are right, godless and barbaric are
not equal.

--- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi Ken,
>
>    That was more a comment against the godless
> Romans - one doesn't have =
> to be Godless to be barbaric.
>
>                               Trisha
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ken barber [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:46 PM
> > To:   [log in to unmask]
> > Subject:      Re: religion and politics
> (long-ish);  was RE: Brother in Law
> >=20
> > there has been many atrosities committed in the
> name
> > of G-d that he had nothing to do with it.
> >=20
> > --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > Oh Kyle,
> > >
> > >    I love it, when you get into the fray. The
> only
> > > correction I would =3D
> > > add  - The Romans were not godless, they had a
> > > pantheon of Gods - they =3D
> > > where no different than any of the other ancient
> > > civilizations - we =3D
> > > can't judge those civilizations with our morals
> - it
> > > took building on =3D
> > > those societies to get where we are today. And
> if do
> > > - then we need to =3D
> > > remember - the Burning tImes and the Spanish
> > > Inquistion - no one gets =3D
> > > away scot free - despite everything we know - we
> > > still don't really act =3D
> > > like civilized people. We just have a slightly
> > > higher level of barberism =3D
> > > today.
> > >
> > >                                           Trisha
> > >
> > >
> > > Trisha Cummings,   Data Analyst  =3D20
> > > Synectics For Management Decisions, Inc
> > > 1901 North Moore Street, Suite 900
> > > Arlington, Virginia 22209
> > > Ph# 703-807-2345
> > > Fax 703-528-6421
> > >
> > >
> > > > What gets me is that many conservative
> Christians
> > > (which describes ME =3D
> > > in
> > > > only in basic theology) feel that the US
> should
> > > be/was a theocracy.  =3D
> > > If they
> > > > would only read the teachings of the
> individual
> > > they purport to
> > > > follow--Jesus--they would understand that the
> > > biblical theocracy only =3D
> > > went
> > > > as far as Israel (ex. Mt 22:15-22, the entire
> > > chapter of Acts 28).
> > > >=3D20
> > > > In the New Testament, the church is not
> expected
> > > to function as a =3D
> > > nation
> > > > state. On the contrary, the program is clearly
> > > different as witnessed =3D
> > > by the
> > > > call to submit to, and obey the Roman
> > > government--one of the most =3D
> > > godless
> > > > and brutal governments in history. (Rom. 13:1)
> The
> > > New Testament is =3D
> > > devoid
> > > > of any call to take over society or to run
> society
> > > God's way. =3D
> > > Unfortunately,
> > > > many Bible interpreters continue to read the
> > > Covenantal promises and
> > > > warnings addressed to Israel in the Old
> Testament
> > > as though they apply
> > > > either to the church, or to the United States
> (or
> > > other countries).
> > > >=3D20
> > > >=3D20
> > > > A very common example of this confusion is the
> > > often quoted passage in =3D
> > > 2
> > > > Chronicles 7:13 "If I shut up the heavens so
> that
> > > there is no rain, or =3D
> > > if I
> > > > command the locust to devour the land, or if I
> > > send pestilence among =3D
> > > My
> > > > people, and My people who are called by My
> name
> > > humble themselves and =3D
> > > pray,
> > > > and seek My face and turn from their wicked
> ways,
> > > then I will hear =3D
> > > from
> > > > heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal
> > > their land." It is a =3D
> > > mistake
> > > > to apply this passage to the United States? It
> > > refers to the
> > > > cursing/blessing section in the book of
> > > Deuteronomy. The people who =3D
> > > are
> > > > called by God's name are Israel. There is in
> fact
> > > no such promise =3D
> > > extended
> > > > to other countries.
> > > >=3D20
> > > >=3D20
> > > > One qualification is needed on this point. In
> the
> > > ancient world, there =3D
> > > was
> > > > no opportunity to vote on government issues or
> > > candidates. We do not =3D
> > > know
> > > > what God would have said if there was.
> Probably, a
> > > good ethical case =3D
> > > can be
> > > > made for Christian activism in politics as
> long as
> > > it falls short of
> > > > attempts to establish a Christian state.
> > > >=3D20
> > > > History is full of examples of catastrophic
> > > results when the church =3D
> > > has
> > > > concluded that it is to run the state. A
> nation>=20
> > > state often has to =3D
> > > operate
> > > > in the area of compulsion, punishment and even
> > > war. All of these =3D
> > > things are
> > > > inappropriate for the church. The church needs
> to
> > > keep crystal clear
> > > > loyalties, excluding any non-biblical
> insertion
> > > into Christian =3D
> > > doctrine.
> > > >=3D20
> > > >=3D20
> > > > Manipulators use values similar or even
> identical
> > > to those in the =3D
> > > Bible to
> > > > get Christians to back their agendas. For
> > > instance, no two themes are =3D
> > > more
> > > > universal in world religions than the sanctity
> of
> > > the family and the
> > > > sacredness of the given cultural-national
> > > heritage. Oriental religion =3D
> > > often
> > > > actually worships parents and ancestors. Islam
> > > views the state as =3D
> > > expressly
> > > > a religious entity. Most oral religions are
> one
> > > and the same as the
> > > > government of the tribe. This has tended to be
> > > true of Christianity as =3D
> > > well
> > > > in Europe. The medieval church was convinced
> that
> > > the state was to =3D
> > > operate
> > > > under the spiritual authority of the church.
> > > >=3D20
> > > >=3D20
> > > > Linking the universal appeal of blood and soil
> > > values with patriotic =3D
> > > values>=3D20
> > > > and religion leads to the formation of a civil
> > > religion which is =3D
>
=== message truncated ===


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