Wally Day wrote:
> Wow, Amadeus, did you go to the trouble of 'de-coding'
> my post in order to reply?

At last my email client did it (I switched to email from archive list).
Alas I had a problem sending my own post. I added back the >s and as I
saw I made some wrong quotes.

>>the
>>body has to metabolize
>>the carb the two steps (into Acetyl CoA) to a
>>energetically usable
>>substrate, whereas fats don't require this step.
>
> Yes, this was one of the arguments originally used to
> support the 'fat makes you fat' lie.

ONe thing is right - to make body fat out of the carbs also requires the
glycolysis step. Fat can go to fat anyway.

But the problem is that any human will eat more and more *until* cell
energy is sufficient. Fat or carb. Eating more will make really fat.
In low action of glycolysis (what I suspect as a widespread condition)
there won't be enough processing power to break down the glucose.
I think then body cells will get access to glucose (through the
appropiate enzymes) in an order of priority.
1st priority has the brain, alone by beeing allowed to munch on it
without insulin.
2nd priority must be the fat cells. They are the last resort of the body
to clean away too much glucose in the blood, after the rest of the body
quits using carbs. If it's insulin resistent or just unable to burn cell
glucose.
Low vitamin carbs are a vicious circle.

>>Most people I tell about the 270g are astonished
>>that it is so much.


> Notice I posted 'animal protein', which would of
> course include eggs, meat, fish, milk products
> (typical for an omnivore). Add to that the grains,
> bean, and other plant protein in the non-junk-food
> (yet SAD) omnivore's diet, and you get a pretty high
> protein intake.

270g meat is the number, that's 54g of animal protein.
That's enough to eat only crap energy for the rest.

> If 100% of the protein calories are removed to fulfill
> protein requirements, then you have an energy
> shortage. But 100% of the protein is never utilized,
> so the remainder is used for energy.

100% of RDA protein is about double the nitrogen necessary for
structural purposes. Providing for a less-than-ideal protein quality.
Of 100% RDA protein eaten somewhat 40% of it will be fuelled.
Of 200% RDA protein 140%, say 135% will be fuelled.

 > Which, in general, makes me
> question these so-called protein ceilings (in regards
> to energy requirements). I think 'rabbit starvation'
> has more to do with unfulfilled dietary fat
> requirements than a general energy shortage.

Todd reposted the reasons for rabbit starvation/protein ceiling.
It's the capacity of the body to excrete the nitrogen part, if the
carbon part of the protein is used for energy.
There's a limit to build up urea and ammonium - just like there's a
limit to break down alcohol. And there's a limit to excrete this
nitrogen in the kidneys. Quite good reasons for a protein ceiling.

> Or you could eat organ meat, or 'proper' (paleo) fatty
> meats/fish.

I think you just mean fattier cuts of meat. Liver is rather low fat
(<4%). It has a good EFA part however (0.8 of 3.8 = > 20%) but this 0.8
is divided into 0.38 LA, 0.23 AA and 0.2 DHA. I'd avoid this high AA.

>  .. the
> 'fail after some time' could be solved with a serving
> of the above once or twice a week for *most*
> vegetarians.

Maybe right. I think if a vegetarian fails after 15 years it's probably
Vit.B12 what was missing. B12 is very essential, very energetizing. And
it lasts 15 years, when full.
Shouldn't happen to people eating b12 fortified items.
Then protein -- should be a problem in high fat and high sugar
vegetarian diets - would be solved by a little meat (or more legumes or
dairy or even more other plants).
B2  isn't really a problem - vegetarian sources aren't so bad and the
b2-RDA is the point at which b2 is already beginning to be excreted -
probably taken a little high.
Iron and zinc - I think phytin is the main factor. Many vegetarian whole
foods are rather high in zinc and iron. But it may be hard to absorb due
to the phytin. I think this is the reason why many "amateur" or "en
voge" whole grain eaters get a aversion on whole grain after some time.


(deficits on meat only)
> Again, organ meats or 'proper' (paleo) cuts of
> meat/fish.

You'll be missing Vitamins E, C, B1, folate, Calcium (even on 1.6 kg
meat/day). To include enough spleen, eyes, liver to get enough C and
folate is the Inuit way. Still they are very low in it.
Not a paleo way IMO. Man evolved in an environment with plants. Folate
comes from foliae, leaves.
Same for vitamin C.

Cheers,

Amadeus