David Griffin wrote:
> martin wrote:
> > But I'm not saying it doesn't operate "along nationalist lines."  I'm
> > saying that the "nation" in "nationalist" is meant to be a Jewish
> > state.  Zionists always refer to a Jewish state.  What do zionists mean
> > when they say Israel is meant to be a Jewish state?  I'm saying that
> > whatever Jewish means, that meaning is based on Judaism.  Then a Jewish
> > state can not be a secular state in the strong sense of separation of
> > church and state.
>
> Only in the fantasy world of books and fairy tales you continue to create for
> yourself. The reality is that the state-nationalist ideology Zionism-- a
> complete abomination of Judaism as a religion-- is currently destroying the
> lives of thousands of innocent people. This is not being done "because God
> said so" or "because the Torah said so," but because the United States and
> market forces say so! And the United States is a secular democratic state. By
> the United States giving the largest chunk of its foreign aid to Israel, they
> are not giving money to a synagogue or a rabbi, and thus there is no conflict
> here anyway between the "separation of church and state."

Let me again try to focus on the original issue.  I agree that zionism
is a nationalist movement.  It's goal is to create the state of Israel.
That goal has been achieved.  Despite achieving that goal, zionists
continue to pursue the goal, because they believe, rightly or wrongly,
that the state of Israel is threatened with destruction.  In all cases
where I have read zionist literature or heard zionists speak, except in
arguments like this one, the term zionist is always used with the
meaning expressed by this definition:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html

ie, it is always stated or implied, except in arguments like this one,
that Israel is a Jewish state.  eg, from the definition at the link
given above: "the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland
was attained."

Levitt started this debate by asking and answering the following
question: "Can anti-Zionism be equated with
anti-Semitism? It is my experience that almost invariably it does."

I disagreed based on an argument that agrees with yours, namely, that
Israel should not be a Jewish state.  It should just be a state.  So I
can be anti-zionist without being anti-semitic if I mean that Israel
should not be a Jewish state.

I don't care whether you think Israel is a Jewish state or not.  A great
many people do think Israel is a Jewish state.  And, before you ask what
Jewish means again, it means: of or relating to the religion Judaism.
And I don't care whether you agree with that definition or not.  I'm
sure there are people who use the term as you do, in ways that have no
connection whatsoever to the religion Judaism, but I'm going to stick my
neck out and claim that the overwhelming majority of people assume that
the term Jewish always refers directly or indirectly to Judaism.

So let me take a page from Ariel Sharon's book and from George W. Bush's
book.  They keep saying that Arafat is not doing enough to eliminate
terror.  I don't know if he is or not.  But I'm quite sure that Ariel
Sharon isn't doing enough to eliminate the belief that Israel is a
Jewish state.  In fact, the entire Israeli government is not only not
doing *enough* to eliminate the impression that Israel is a Jewish
state, they aren't doing anything about it at all.

So don't keep saying Israel isn't a Jewsish state.  When the Israeli
people declare that Israel is not a Jewish state, and when Israel
eliminates all privileges of Jews over non-Jews, and when Israel allows
all the people it expelled to come back as full citizens, then I'll stop
thinking of Israel as a Jewish state.

martin

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