Steve,

I am not completely dismissing any and all  problems other disabled people may
have had voting in Georgia or anywhere else.  What I was saying is that the story
seems to lack some of the facts that would convince me there is such a horrible
problem with "disenfranchized voters" among the disabled population.

First, the Senator that claims to be so very concerned about Geogia voters does
NOT represent us.  As I stated in my first post.  Max Clealand and Zell Miller
represent us in the Senate.  (Democrats, both for now.)  And, if there WAS a
problem with minorities being "dienfranchized" in the Atlanta Metro Area,
Representative McKinney would be at the front of the line complaining.  And,
interestingly, not one word has been uttered from HER camp.

Second, the SECOND LINE is a falsehood.  As I said, there is no "opening" in the
voting "booth".  All the setups have not involved a partition except the three
panels that rise fron the desk surface.  The fact that this seemed to be an
article about problems disabled voters experienced in GA, I think it would have
been nice if the first example could have possibly happened in this state.

Third, as I said, in all the areas I have lived and voted in the Atlanta Metro
Area, I have never experienced a problem with an uncooperative Poll Worker.  And
I have never heard about problems with uncooperative Poll Workers.  And
considering one of our local news stations is close to the top of the list for
Most Sensationalist Reporting, I feel assured that if there had been problems
with uncooperative Pool Workers, it would have made it to their broadcasts.
(Every other type of imaginable discrimination or slght of a politically
protected group DOES make it to their broadcasts.  And the local newspapers are
owned by the same outfit.)

There was a suit filed by the NAACP about the supposed "disenfranchizement" of
some voters "of color" because of long lines.  That one kind of died a mercifully
quiet death as it was shown that lines were long EVERYWHERE in the Atlanta Metro
Area.  (I stood in line in the cold (for Georgia), the rain and in the mud for
over an hour.  I then stood in line inside the building for another 45 minutes.
And THAT was at 7:30 AM.  I don't even want to think about the line my In-Laws
stood in later in the morning.)  Nothing came out of The Atlanta Center for the
Blind and Visually Impaired about any blind voters having undue problems.  I feel
assured that if there HAD been substatial problems with disabled voters, it would
have come to light.  (And if there had been a suit filed on behalf of disabled
voters, Neal Boortz would have taken that story and run with it.  Probably NOT in
the light we would like to see it.  But he would have talked about it on-air.)

My problem with this article lies in the FACTS.  The FACTS that just were NOT
there.  Or the FACTS that were WRONG.  It is hard to take an article seriously
when right out of the block there are major "errors" in it.  I am a FACTS type of
person.

Mary Blanton

Steve Zielinski wrote:

> It's nice you are so informed and have such good luck with your voting
> experiences Mary.  Perhaps I am reading to closely into your message, but
> it almost seems you are dismissing the problems other disabled voters
> have had from time to time.  After all, each individual person will have a
> unique voting experiences each time they vote, and when you multiply the
> numbers of voters, certain problems can crop up from time to time.  If
> there are problems for the voting systems which appear from time to time,
> and a systematic situation seems to appear, it is worth looking into it to
> see if there are problems which may disenfranchise certain people at some
> times.
>
> Certain people who have had no problems in voting find it difficult to
> understand that problems may still exist.  After all, "I'm blind and
> NEVER had a problem, so what's all the fuss?.  You may think differently
> when you are ninety and may be a little confused.  The ballot in Chicago
> last election had something like 550 candidates on it, very crowded.
>
> Furthermore, certain disabled groups have different problems dealing with
> voting.  For example, in most polling locations, if one is totally blind,
> they will need to rely on a friend to help them vote or a polling
> official.  They will not actually see the ballot or voting equipment which
> has to be interacted upon to cast the vote.  They will be dependent on the
> abilities of their assistant to actually decipher the choices.  Of course,
> the totally blind person can punch with the stylus, can make sure the
> ballot is clean of chads, actually place the ballot into an envelope or
> the tally box, etc. but the actual process of voting and deciphering the
> printed ballot is up to the assistant.
>
> So just because you have had a perfect, seamless and unimpeded voting
> experience, doesn't mean that your experience exactly translates to the
> experiences of all citizens. It also doesn't mean that those experiences
> and reports are invalid or to be taken with a grain of salt as complains
> of whining, uninformed voters.  Physical barriers are physical
> barriers.  Just because you've never had a poll official refuse you a
> spoiled ballot replacement, doesn't mean that is the case for every
> other voter. Furthermore it is beyond credulity to believe that absolutely
> every punch card machine is set and in perfect running operation all the
> time.  Ultimately, computerized balloting is the most likely solution to
> uniform methods throughout the country.  If people don't have confidence
> in their voting equipment and systems it doesn't promote democratic
> processes either. At this stage we hardly need less confidence in the
> system, we need people to step up and vote and feel as comfortable as
> possible that their vote counted, once not twice, and that political
> shananogans didn't modify their votes.
>
> Here in Chicago we have a curious situation.  Cook County, Chicago's
> county and nearby suburbs, mostly democratic, have been given the money to
> purchase voting equipment which can be used to allow the individual voter
> to check to see if their punch card ballot has been accidently double
> voted upon, that is, two candidates for the same position.  It can also
> check to see if certain races have not been voted upon at all by the
> voter.  The equipment is actually very flexible, and can be set to
> decipher various aspects of the ballot as necessary.  You may feel
> that isn't necessary, after all, the voter should take that responsibility
> into their own hands, etc.
>
> However, the leader of the State House, has always blocked any attempt to
> permit into the law the ability of Cook County to actually USE this double
> checking equipment.  The county can, and has purchased the equipment, but
> is denied by law it's use.  Philips, his name, btw, is a republican.
> Should that make a difference?  Why of course not, Common sense would tell
> you that it makes perfect sense to say to a county that they can purchase
> the equipment which can minimize spoiled ballots and not be allowed to use
> it.  That's what some call good governance.
>
> But curiously, another aspect of this quality, equalized and totally fair
> voting system we have is that the suburban counties beyond Cook are also
> permitted to own these devices which check for double votes.  So we're
> equal, the system works.
>
> Not quite, the difference is that the suburban counties, which hold a
> majority of republican voters, are permitted to USE the equipment.  Should
> this make a difference?  Why, of course not, how silly.
>
> Steve
>
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2001, Mary Blanton wrote:
>
> I am Legally Blind.  (My vision has fluctuated between 20/200 and 20/400 in
> the course of my adult life due to things like suddenly NOT Latent Infantile
> Cataracts.)  I have been that way since birth due to Autosomal Dominant
> Coloboma of the Iris and Lens.  For the first six years I voted, I voted
> Absentee, as I was attending college out-of-state.  Then, I got married and
> moved to Atlanta, GA.
>
> I have voted EVERY TIME I have had the opportunity to.  I NEVER pass up the
> opportunity to exercise what I consider one of the MOST important rights we
> enjoy in this country.  I have been presented with exactly the same kind of
> ballot in each and every election I have voted in in the past 16 years.  It
> is exactly the same ballot that SUPPOSEDLY caused so many problems for the
> voters in 3 of the 69 counties in Florida, that "inherently unfair and
> confusing" "punchcard ballot".  I have even been presented with that
> "inherently confusing and unfair" "butterfly ballot" on occasion.  (If you
> get the hint that I am being the slightest bit sarcastic, you are right.)
>
> I have NEVER had a problem using those ballots.  I have NEVER struggled to
> figure out what hole to punch.  (Even for this "blind chick", the arrows have
> been straight-forward enough to allow me to cast a LEGAL ballot for the
> candidates I want to represent me.)  I have NEVER had a problem with "chad".
> (Maybe I am just a little smarter than the "average bear".  But, I have
> ALWAYS flipped my ballot card over to make sure there were no stray bits of
> "chad" left henging from it before I deposited it.)  AND, I have ALWAYS known
> that if, for ANY reason, I DID have a problem, I could and SHOULD ask a Poll
> Worker for assistance.  (I HAVE spoiled a ballot and I HAVE gotten a
> replacement without a problem.)
>
> I have voted in several different areas (counties) in the Atlanta Metro
> Area.  I have voted in Fulton County, the county Atlanta City is in.  I have
> voted in Dekalb County, the county directly east of Atlanta City.  And I have
> voted in Forsyth County, the county directly north of Fulton County.  And I
> know people that have voted in virtually every one of the rest of the
> counties in the Atlanta Metro Area.  (So I know a little bit about the types
> of booths used in the Atlanta Metro Area.)  This includes areas that could
> very easily be compared to the areas in Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade
> counties where people supposedly ran into so many problems.  This inclides
> areas where, if compared to the Florida counties, Poll Workers were rude and
> unhelpful.  I have NEVER found a Poll Worker SO rude and unhelpful that they
> would NOT help a Disabled person cast a proper ballot.  (When my husband and
> I first married, we lived in some of the "less desirable" areas of the
> Atlanta Metro Area.)
>
> The booths used in most GA counties look alot like the privacy desks you
> might find at some Public Libraries.  There are barriers rising from three
> sides of the DESK SURFACE.  There is no booth, where you have to "squeeze
> through a 5-inch
> partition to get into the voting booth"  AND, there has ALWAYS been several
> booths specifically narked for the use of the Disabled.  The voting booths
> still in use in MOST of the Georgia counties look just like what you saw in
> use in Florida.  The ones specifically marked for the Disabled had been
> lowered to the height that made them accessable to the wheelchair-bound.
>
> However, a COUPLE of GA counties used a ScanTron type of ballot for the first
> time in November.  I do NOT know what the booths looked like in those
> counties, but I was under the impression they looked VERY MUCH like the ones
> used by the counties still using the punchcard ballots.  (Now, in NY, where
> they still use the mechanical, lever type booths, that is a different story.
> I understand that if you are wheelchair bound or overweight, you could
> experience problems entering THOSE booths.)
>
> I just don't get where Senator Dodd is getting his information from.  He is
> NOT a Senator from GA.  Max Clealand and Zell Miller are our Senators.  If he
> is a House member, then he is from South Georgia because I have never heard
> of him.  (If Rep. Cynthia McKinney has not complained too loudly about the
> booths used in the Atlanta Metro Area, I would not put too much stock in the
> validity of this story.  She is usually the first one to start screamin if
> minorities have been "slighted".  She started screaming about "Natural Hair
> Discrimination" several years ago after having an altercation with a doorman
> because he just did NOT believe someone sporting Dreads could possibly be a
> Federal Representative.  She represents Dekalb County.)
>
> Mary Blanton
> An informed Voter from Georgia
>
> Kelly Pierce wrote:
>
> > Senator Dodd has a blind relative who is a retired New york city school
> > teacher.
> >
> > Kelly
> >
> > Panel Hears About Poll Problems
> >
> > By DAVID LIGHTMAN
> > The Hartford Courant
> >
> > Jul 24 2001 12:00AM
> >
> > ATLANTA - Imagine, said Anil Lewis, going to vote and being told you
> > first have to clear a 10-foot vertical leap.
> >
> > And once you're over that hurdle, you have to squeeze through a 5-inch
> > partition to get into the voting booth. That, the Georgia spokesman for
> > the blind
> > told the Senate Rules Committee, is the equivalent of what disabled
> > voters face all the time.
> >
> > This is the kind of very personal, wrenching testimony committee Chairman
> > Christopher J. Dodd, D-Conn., and his colleagues wanted to hear as they
> > conducted
> > the first in what is expected to be a series of nationwide hearings to
> > document problems people had when they went to the polls last year.
> >
> > Dodd and 50 colleagues are pushing sweeping changes in how elections are
> > run and have two gusts of wind at their back: a bipartisan desire to
> > never again
> > endure the kind of fiasco Florida experienced last year and a strong
> > feeling in minority communities that they were disproportionately refused
> > the right
> > to vote.
> >
> > Monday, Dodd tried to add more momentum by bringing average folks before
> > his committee to testify.
> >
> > "The evidence is piling up," Dodd said. "Florida was not an aberration.
> > What happened there happened everywhere."
> >
> > Dodd, though, met with his usual nemesis: Local officials who aren't
> > crazy about Washington meddling in their affairs. "Federal mandates are
> > not the solution,"
> > said Hans A. von Spakovsky, vice chairman of the Fulton County (Ga.)
> > election board.
> >
> > But the testimony from Lewis and others, so different in tone and
> > substance from the carefully prepared statements and rehearsed answers of
> > Washington,
> > helped Dodd win the public relations war.
> >
> > Juanita Cribb, a teacher from Stone Mountain, Ga., warned at the outset
> > "I like to talk, so I may go on awhile," while a subdued Diane Smith of
> > Rex, Ga.,
> > was more nervous and kept her testimony quick. Civil rights leader Joseph
> > E. Lowery compared the current struggle to the 1965 voting rights march
> > from
> > Selma to Montgomery, Ala.
> >
> > In this civil rights-conscious city, where Martin Luther King preached
> > and the courthouse sits beside a street that bears his name, Lowery made
> > it clear
> > this was not just about Florida.
> >
> > "Our nation must respond again to the cries of its people," he said.
> >
> > To hammer home the point that justice was denied, Dodd held the hearing
> > in a federal courtroom on top of a downtown office building, one of those
> > southern
> > sanctuaries where civil rights battles were fought, and ultimately won,
> > for half a century.
> >
> > There was nothing fancy here. Dodd sat in front of a huge tan wall whose
> > monotony was broken only by a video camera, a U.S. District Court seal
> > and two
> > silver thermostats.
> >
> > The most lasting impressions were the words, as most of the seven
> > witnesses made similar points. "I felt assaulted and I felt downright
> > insulted," the outspoken
> > Cribb said about her Election Day ordeal as she explained how she and
> > others had to wait more than six hours at her Lithonia, Ga., precinct
> > because of
> > power failures and other problems.
> >
> > There were no fancy charts or studies, and the one attempt to
> > Washington-ize things went nowhere. People for the American Way, a
> > Washington activist group,
> > brought someone from the capital to pass out T-shirts screaming "You Have
> > the Right to Vote."
> >
> > In Washington, the black and white shirts/symbols would have gone quickly
> > and allowed the audience to send a silent message. Here, only three of
> > about 100
> > spectators took the shirts. It was more notable that civil rights leaders
> > such as former Atlanta Mayor Maynard Jackson simply sat in the audience,
> > offering
> > by his presence consent to what was occurring in front of them.
> >
> > In fact, Lewis proudly pointed out at the end of his statement that he
> > had not even mentioned Florida's electoral problems and that "I have made
> > my appeal
> > without the use of statistics."
> >
> > Whether all this will give Dodd's effort to reform voting the kind of
> > impetus he wants is still uncertain.
> >
> > There were no Republicans present, and Smith, who was denied the right to
> > vote because of a registration mix-up, said afterward that could hurt the
> > cause.
> > Von Spakovsky was the only witness skeptical of Dodd's reforms, and there
> > was a minor local flap when State Rep. Bob Irvin said Dodd withdrew his
> > invitation
> > to testify after learning Irvin would challenge Georgia Sen. Max Cleland
> > next year.
> >
> > Dodd nonetheless thought his cause was moving ahead quickly. He hopes to
> > send his bill to the full Senate in the fall and has the strong backing
> > of Senate
> > Majority Leader Thomas A. Daschle, who has vowed to make it one of the
> > year's top legislative priorities.
> >
> > The staff of Sen. Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., who is offering competing
> > legislation, was present Monday, indicating McConnell is open to some
> > change. He told
> > Senate colleagues in Washington he was ready to support more funding for
> > reform immediately.
> >
> > Dodd's bill, the stronger of the two, would provide funding and resources
> > to states that want to improve voting technology, as well as train poll
> > workers,
> > update voting rolls and effect other changes.
> >
> > And it has three key differences from McConnell's. It would require
> > states to allow voters to have sample ballots before election day, permit
> > "provisional
> > voting" that allows a questionable vote to eventually count if a mistake
> > was made, and provide equal access for all voters.
> >
> > VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
> > To join or leave the list, send a message to
> > [log in to unmask]  In the body of the message, simply type
> > "subscribe vicug-l" or "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the quotations.
> >  VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide Web at
> > http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html
>
> VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
> To join or leave the list, send a message to
> [log in to unmask]  In the body of the message, simply type
> "subscribe vicug-l" or "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the quotations.
>  VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide Web at
> http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html
>
> --
> +----------------------------+
> |  Steve Zielinski  (N8UJS)  |
> |      [log in to unmask]      |
> +----------------------------+
>
> VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
> To join or leave the list, send a message to
> [log in to unmask]  In the body of the message, simply type
> "subscribe vicug-l" or "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the quotations.
>  VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide Web at
> http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html


VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
To join or leave the list, send a message to
[log in to unmask]  In the body of the message, simply type
"subscribe vicug-l" or "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the quotations.
 VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide Web at
http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html