>On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 07:48:25 -0400, The Getty's <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> We know, just by the fact
>>that grains were domesticated, that wild grains were utilized for a long
>>time before domestication and complex processing, by people that were only
>>occassionally using them.

On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:40:56 -0700, Ken Stuart <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I would question this, based solely on the low yield of grain.

I have read reports how wild grasses (grain predecessors)
at a certain time of the year were standing so dense in certain areas
that it was easy to collect food for many weeks in an effort of hours.
Good postings were also:
http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?A2=ind9706&L=paleodiet&P=R889

And http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?A2=ind9808&L=paleodiet&P=R393
writes:
"Natural stands of wild grass can give very respectable yields of
 high-quality food. Yields of 500-800 kg/ha are not uncommon and 1 ton/ha
 can occasionally be obtained.  ..
.., who described an African wild-grass harvest and stated that one
 adult could easily gather 10 kg in a mornings effort. In an experiment with
 wild einkorn wheat in Turkey Harlan himself yielded almost 1 kg of
 pure-grain equivalent per hour of work, and the grains were far more
 nutritious than domesticated wheat."

I like also:
http://www.naturalhub.com/natural_food_guide_grains_beans_seeds.htm
#Domestication of seeds

>Consider who many wheat plants must be cultivated to produce the same
>amount of
>food as an apple tree.

Maybe they needen't be cultivated even if they stand naturally.

While I think a primitive form of cultivation would have been done since
early paleolithic times.
For example by taking some fruit seeds (e.g. almonds) along the way just to
propagate them in another area. From trees known to have tasty fruit.

>This is why grain cultivation = agriculture.

It's quite astonishing how at the end of the one last ice age suddenly and
independantely from each other at many places on the earth real agriculture
came up. America, asia, africa, near east.

Why not in the frequent thermals before? The last is only 50,000 years
away. And there were quite many warm times before.
But this one persisted. Basically all of them persisted, even the efforts
of the native americans are successful today (sunflowers, beans, maize).

A.S.