On Thu, 4 Jul 2002, Phosphor wrote:

> > The way of life you describe here is a pretty good
> > description of  the mesolithic period.
>
> Todd, just face up to it. since the first man/woman walked on the earth
> he/she has hunted and collected a great variety of both salt- and
> fresh-water seafood.

The sources I have seen indicate that seafood was a late
paleolithic addition.  See
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1h.shtml and
http://www.calpoly.edu/~tljones/Facts%208%202002.html and
http://union.ic.ac.uk/hellenic/mesolithic.shtml and
http://ragz-international.com/stone_age1.htm

I'm not arguing that people didn't eat fish prior to the
mesolithic; I am arguing that fish probably weren't the main
source of om-3 fats until the late paleo/meso period.  Prior to
that, the main source was probably brains and ALA sources.

> > Incidentally, what does olive oil have to do with om-3s?
>
> all these things are related issues in the 'fat profile' of Cordain, as you
> well know. let's remember:
> 1. he claims modern mammal fats are too high in Om-6s.
> we know this is wrong. did he lie or is he merely incompetent?

Where does he claim this?  The only claim of the sort that I know
of is that the *ratio* of om-6 to om-3 is too high.  But that is
only one issue about domesticated fatty meat.  Another is the
ratio of MUFA, SFA, and PUFA in wild versus domesticated fatty
meat.  In wild game meats, the ratio is roughly this: MUFA = SFA
+ PUFA.  In feedlot animal fat, it's quite different.  This is
why Cordain is much more strident than Audette about getting
free-range meats if possible.  I don't think this makes him
either a liar or incompetent.

> 2. so we should use oliver oil as a suitable substitute.
> why? since olive is not paleo. use tallow, lard, marrow fat.

Why is olive oil not paleo?  Incidentally, Audette also
recommends olive oil.  Is he a liar or incompetent?

> 3. and we should use flax to get the Om-3 balance right.
> this is the most incoherent of all. there is no DHA or EPA in flax. fish
> flesh and liver oils do the job perfectly.

That would be incoherent only if DGA and EPA were the only om-3
oils there are.  Are you lying or incompetent?

> i repeat the question: do u acknowledge tallow is paleo and olive is not?

The customary definition of tallow is: "Hard fat obtained from
parts of the bodies of cattle, sheep, or horses, and used in
foodstuffs or to make candles, leather dressing, soap, and
lubricants." (see http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=tallow)
This is how Audette uses the term as well, as an ingredient in
pemmican.  It's the hard depot fat, with a high percentage of
stearic acid, that makes the tallow hard.  This is why drippings
from muscle fat don't work so well for making pemmican.

Cordain's position is based on analysis of the composition of
total carcass fat of elk (representing a typical wild game meat)
versus feedlot beef.  His view is that the differences between
the two are significant enough to make the latter something to be
restricted (though not avoided altogether).  The logic is the
same as Audette's position on wild versus cultivated fruits: the
latter have been bred for increased sugar content and thus, while
they need not be avoided altogether, they must be restricted.

Todd Moody
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