<<Disclaimer: Verify this information before applying it to your situation.>>

This a summary of the 22 responses to my question to the List on
whether anyone has seen a connection between eating olives and getting
canker sores.  Many thanks to all who sent comments.

The original post (February 3, 2002):

"I went on a gluten free diet when I finally realized that wheat, rye
and barley were causing me to get canker sores without end.  I have
found recently that if I overdose on olives (I think it is either
green or ripe, that is, black olives) I will get one or more canker
sores on the lips or under the tongue.  I don't know much about these
olives except they are large, and come loose in olive oil, are
sometimes stuffed, but generally not - that is, they have stones -
and when I crave olives I like to eat maybe a dozen at a time!  The
sores seem to begin as tiny clear blisters. I can sometimes keep them
from developing into big canker sores by repeated application of a
povidone-iodine solution.

Has anyone else found this problem with olives?  I wonder if it is
something in the olives themselves that behaves in the same way as
gluten or is there gluten somehow in the olives."

In summarizing the responses, I am collecting those which make a
similar point, and after each group I am adding a comment or two of
my own.  My comments are in brackets like this <<blah, blah>>. I have
split some of the responses and put them under two or more categories
because the responses discussed different possible causes.

*********************

Maybe the sores are herpes or dermatitis herpetiformis (d.h.)

"Are you sure your sores are canker and not herpes?"

**********************

 "Have you considered dermatitis herpetiformis, D. H.? It is the rash
that many celiacs have as a part of the disease. We will have flare
ups at any time we have been indiscrete in diet, i.e., taken in some
gluten, but many also find that iodine and iodides can bring on a
blister. The typical sore, or lesion, is a very small (about 1 to 1.5
mm) clear blister, often there are several separated by about 1/2 to
1 cm of nearly normal skin. They are called herpetiformis because
they are in appearance much like the lesions of herpes, which however
is caused by virus infection (Herpes simplex virus)."

Canker sores, or fever blisters, or cold sores, all more-or-less the
same thing, common names, can sometimes be Herpes simplex sores on
the lips, or elsewhere. They have nothing to do with gluten or celiac
disease.

Another is use of NSAID medications, i.e., aspirin, ibuprofen,
naproxen, etc. Some celiacs claim that those drugs cause flare ups of
D.H. in those who have D. H., which has become quiescent due to very
good dieting. It is not proven, and many experts doubt the NSAID
connection is real."

**********************

<<Everything that I know about canker sores and herpes sores (not
much) says that canker sores are definitely not caused by herpes.  My
sores are inside the mouth, while cold sores are, they say, without
fail outside of the mouth.  I don't know whether D.H. sores occur
within the mouth.  I can say that I am pretty sure that NSAIDs don't
bother me, and I know that I wasn't using them at the time I got
these canker sores after eating olives.>>

**********************

GLUTEN AND CANKER SORES

"Not really the answer but a note that I just spoke with a woman who
said that she gets canker sores from gluten."

********************

<<When I cut gluten out of my diet, I quit getting canker sores.  But
there is still the odd time when I get canker sores after banging the
inside of my mouth with my toothbrush, or maybe cut the inside of my
mouth with a sharp corn chip or something like that.  And, of course,
sometimes I get sores for no apparent reason:  that is, no hurting my
mouth and, as far as I could remember, no eating of gluten.>>

********************

OTHERS WHO HAVE A REACTION TO OLIVES

"I don't know about your problem, but this weekend I had dishes with
olive oil and got sick twice before we figured it out."

*********************

"My experience with olives is a bit different from yours, but I do
get a reaction.  Mine is floaters--black spots floating in front of
my eye sight.  So I no longer eat olives or use olive oil in food
preparation."

*********************

"Your post caught my interest because my gluten free son cannot eat
olives or he gets the same reaction as to gluten (starts with severe
mood swings long before any gut reactions). It is interesting how we
crave foods that end up doing us in sometimes - I wonder if it is the
salt that you crave, or the good fat that olive oil provides, or
something else. Back in the days before we figured our diet and gut
problems out, we did find that taking l-lysine would significantly
reduce the duration of cankers (which we don't even get anymore).  Also
probiotics such as acidophilus (good old yogurt may be the best source!)
were very helpful. I think that most if not all olives come with some
preservative in them, and that may be our actual trigger.  Also, I
believe that they are high in benzoic acid, which some people are
sensitive to (though far more are sensistive to salicylic acid - see
www.feingold.org for info on the Feingold diet which helps you eliminate
salicyaltes, and then benzoates, too, if salicylates is not enough - oh,
and their #1 thing is eliminating artificial flavors, colors and
preservatives (esp BHA, BHT) - we used this diet for over ten years
before we were able to eat things like tomato and oranges again...."

*********************

<<It has been my personal experience that nothing helps me with a canker
sore except realizing early that one is on the way, and immediately
"painting" the tingling or blistered spot with Betadine, a povidone-
iodine solution that comes in a bottle like a fingernail polish bottle,
complete with little brush.  If I brush early and often, sometimes I can
keep the spot from developing into a raging canker sore.  I am currently
experimenting with swallowing capsules of something called Gum Mastic
that is said to work on the intestine where (maybe) canker sores really
begin.>>

*********************

AN ALLERGY TO OLIVES?

"Another possibility would be food allergy to olives, which however
is very rare I believe."

*********************

"I think that you are allergic to the olives.  Celiacs have many
other allergies and sensitivities other than gluten."

**********************

 "I don't know about olives, but I get tiny, pinpoint size raised
dots on the inside of my mouth and lips whenever I eat anything with
soy in it. That isn't gluten, but my body reacts as in an allergic
way if I eat it."

************

"I don't believe you're having a gluten-type reaction, although
that's just my 2 cents. It sounds more like an allergic reaction,
which involves a different part of your immune system. I get mouth
blisters from several different foods--mostly fruits--and have since
I was a child, but that is not part of my gluten response at all.
Since going gluten free, my allergic reactions to different foods is
much milder, though. That's great, because now I can eat one or two
strawberries (one of my allergenic foods) without having a painful
mouth blister for a week or so!

You could well be allergic to olives, and it might be a good idea to
avoid them for a couple of months, then try them again. Some
allergies can come and go, but intolerances (to gluten, for example)
are for life. (Important note: some allergies, like nut, seafood, and
iodine allergies, are life-threatening, and should not be 'tested' to
see if you have gotten over them.)

If you do eliminate an olive allergy, be careful not to OD on olives.
Just eat a few, once in a while. The body unfortunately seems to
crave allergenic foods sometimes, but be strong! Over-dosing on any
food can sometimes lead to allergies where none existed before. I've
heard of people developing rice allergy, even, because they ate rice
every day instead of varying their diets."

******************

"...it could be an allergic reaction. You may need to avoid olives
(plus I would try to avoid olive oil) for a few years when hopefully
you would no longer be allergic to them, I have found this works for
my food allergies that weren't severe. Or you need to limit the
amount to below the threshold of where you react.

"From what I remember about canker sores various foods can trigger
this and may not even be a gluten reaction. Hopefully someone with
more information will pass on what has been found which will help
you. Otherwise I would do an internet search to get more
information."

*******************

"Blistering in the mouth sounds like food allergy to me.  That's what
happens to me if I eat a lot of something I'm allergic to."

********************

"Maybe you're allergic to olives since you eat them often and you
probably had gut permeability (large olive stuff can get into
bloodstream when normally, it couldn't) from the gluten.  If you
don't eat them for a while, maybe a couple of months, your allergic
reaction might go away.

I have been gluten-free for 6 months and I discovered that I was also
allergic to corn and pineapple (got very tired about a half hour
after eating them) probably because I ate them often and gut
permeability.  I haven't eaten these two foods for a couple of months
and have been meaning to try them again to see if I am still allergic
to them."

****************

<<My understanding of allergies is that the reaction to the allergen
is very quick, and my reaction to olives was probably after about 12
to 24 hours.  I suppose blisters could be an allergic reaction to
olives, but the blisters eventually become canker sores, and I don't
know whether that happens with allergies.  My current hypothesis is
that canker sores begin at the sites of Fordyce Granules.  This guess
comes strictly from Internet surfing, where I learned that a large
part of the population has small yellowish-colored spots on the lips
and on the inside of the cheeks. These are called Fordyce Granules
and are said to be "ectopic sebaceous glands without a hair."  I've
also read that the whole body is covered with sebaceous glands, it is
just that they can be seen only where they have a thin covering like
mucous membranes or very thin skin.  Maybe when these glands inside
the mouth become inflamed they develop into canker sores.  It is
almost like an in-mouth acne (of course that gets back to the
dermatitis herpetiformis question, doesn't it?)>>

******************

REACTION TO GLUTEN ADDED TO THE OLIVES?

"There are many types of food sensitivity. All that itches is not
necessarily gluten."

******************

"Could you be getting canker sores from the vinegar the olives are
in?"

******************

"We have talked about vinegar a lot on this list and I still don't
really understand what the conclusions are.

However, green olives are usually packed in vinegar and if the
vinegar is made out of grain, which white vinegar usually is, I would
think that might be the way you are getting gluten."

******************

"A way you could test to see if there is any minute amount of gluten
that is causing you to react is to get a container of Kosher for
Passover olives (you did not indicate where you live so cannot help
you with where to obtain them) when they become available in about a
month. If you want to do this and don't know where to obtain the
olives email me with where you live and I will try to see where the
olives can be purchased in your area (if they are available locally).
Since Kosher for Passover products MUST be 100% wheat, oat, barley,
spelt and rye free it helps to use items that are kosher for passover
to to test for gluten."

******************

"It is, of course, possible that you are eating olives that have
gluten contamination. Read the label, call the manufacturer, do all
the usual precautions. Some people react badly (not a gluten
reaction, necessarily) to vinegars, and I personally prefer olives
that are packed in olive oil, wine must or brine, not in vinegar."

******************

 "As for olives -- some of them (usually the green ones) are soaked
in white vinegar, which could be a problem. Others are brined (in
salt water) and shouldn't contain gluten, but who knows?"

******************

Within the last year there has been a discussion in this celiac list
as to whether olives are gluten free, and the final opinion was that
they all seem to be OK, certainly the plain ripe or green ones would
be. (The stuffing in those stuffed with pimento, etc., might be
questionable, they thought). No one that contributed to the
discussion had any evidence that any olives had gluten, however."

****************

 I am a celiac and live in Turkey where olives and olive oil is a
part of all meals ...

As Italy, Spain and Greece, Turkey is full of olive trees too. I have
friends who are the owner of companies which produce olive and olive
oil.

So, Never buy olive oil if it does not say 'virgin' which is the type
of process its made of...

And never buy a olives from the bulk, buy with air tight packages or
glass jars which shows  all the ingredients. Usually some
preservatives are used such as citric acid and the citric acid might
be coming from grains!  Or they use some oil (which is cheaper than
olive oil- healty and natural for the rest of the population but not
for us!)

I eat lots of olives (more than a dozen) for breakfast every day and
always buy them as air tight packages which says its only olives and
salt in it. So far had no problems...I am not only intolerant to
gluten but lecithin, citrus, milk and cocoa too...

So I don't think olives are your problem ...Just be careful what else
is coming with ..."

*******************

<<I am going to follow this advice and stay away from unlabeled,
loose olives.  The olives I ate were sold in bulk in a market that
had them in wooden tubs.  They are well-oiled, and often have parsley
mixed in with them.  I'll probably go out looking for Kosher and
organic olives this week.>>

********************

REACTION TO SOMETHING ELSE (non-gluten) ADDED TO THE OLIVES?

"Some olives have "ferrous gluconate" in them for the color (I
think). This may or may not be derived from gluten."

********************

"Frequently olives are bathed in a solution that contains nitrites,
or perhaps sulfites. both nitrites and sulfites have been known to
trigger cold sores/canker sores. It may be as simple as that."

******************

I've never heard of olives causing sores but I have had some strange
food reactions over the last 3 years so I won't say it's not
possible. Maybe it's a preservative or such.  Might try a jar or two
of organic olives and see if same thing happens.  10 olives is
nothing.  I eat whole cans at a time!"

******************

"Could it be something else, non-gluten related that gives you these
symptoms as well?

My wife (she has CD) likes olives but had problems (more like CD
symptoms rather than sores), with the ones bought from the
supermarket, so she started preserving her own. In the research she
did about how to go about preserving your own olives she found that
commercial producers use mainly caustic soda in processing and she
thinks she had possibly problems with residue from the processing
(read caustic soda) rather than gluten. Apparently using caustic soda
is deemed more environment friendly than disposing of saline water.
Her olives are quite successful. For the saline water and the other
ingredients, to penetrate properly she puts three slits into every
olive - an activity which had me staying up on several occasions to
about midnight - 'furiously' slitting olives. I suppose in
commercially prepared olives, the caustic soda penetrates better than
plain saline water and the final product looks more presentable.

We are lucky in that olives are grown locally. There is a great deal
of information about this on the internet and there are many
varieties of olives grown, not all of them are suitable for
preserving.

We just tell a greengrocer friend of ours to purchase us a case or
two of olives suitable for preserving, so I can't personally advise
you which varieties are best."

*****************

"You can be reacting to...the vinegar some are processed with and/or
canola oil.....Get them in cans and check the ingredients.  If you
are eating a lot of them, you may be throwing off the acid/alkalai
balance in your body...."

*****************

"There could be a problem with the vinegar but probably your whole
system is overacid or something and this kind of food puts you over
the top."

*****************

"I am gluten intolerant but green olives (I buy the queen stuffed
ones, in a vinegar solution) I can tolerate. Black olives can bother
me, however.

I'm not sure if you're having a reaction to the vinegar or what it
may be."

******************

Olives are very salty, and excess salt will cause extremely small
blisters in the corners of my mouth.  However, I always drained the
liquid off the can of olives and refilled with water, let them soak,
drained and filled with water again, before eating them.  Then
refrigerated.  So I am not aware of a connection between olives and
blisters in the corners of my mouth.

There is an acid in olives that your tissues may be reacting to.
There is hardly any substance on earth that someone, somewhere is not
sensitive to! I hope you are able to get to the bottom of this.  I
expect you have already figured out not to OD on olives any more.

********************

<< My reaction to all this is to get only olives that are packed in a
container and labelled with all ingredients, and to keep away from
vinegar.  Maybe I'll wash the olives before eating them and see if
that makes a difference.  I hate to experiment, by seeing what
changes are not followed by get a 10- day canker sore, but maybe
that's the only way to know what is going on.  As for acidity, it
seems that the diet in our home is acid, acid, acid, but I don't get
canker sores from the usual run of food.>>

COULD THE CAUSE BE SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT?

"Canker sores are considered a sign of celiac, so the connection is
good. I don't think anyone knows exactly what, otherwise, causes them
though. I know one particular toothpaste (that doesn't contain
gluten) consistently gave them to my family. So does the "peppermint"
flavor at the dentist (fruit flavor doesn't though). Also I once got
a horribly sore mouth from drinking loads of a certain tea I just
loved. So I think there are other connections that can cause them,
not just gluten. I've heard that if you really crave something
(enough to OD on it) there is a good chance you are somewhat allergic
to it.

I have a friend who claims that Listerine gets rid of canker sores
almost immediately. I tried it on my daughter, and it worked really
well, but we haven't had any since we went gf. I don't know if
Listerine is gf or not."

***********************

<<They say that sodium lauryl sulfate foaming agent (detergent) in
most toothpaste formulations has a part in causing canker sores for
many people.

One of my sisters remembers when an agent was first put in a toothpaste
(I think she said it it was Colgate's "Gardol", which is N-lauryl sodium
sarcosinate, according to an Internet site) and our Mother bought a tube
then all three girls in the family broke out with a mouthful of canker
sores.  I've tried Listerine, but had no luck.  It stings the
canker sores, but doesn't do anything to cure them in me.>>