On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:29:15 -0400, matesz <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Haven't read the full text of that, but I know that the article cited is
not
>a clinical study of protein metabolism in man, it is a review of literature
>on contemporary h-gs. I don't care who used that as a backing for the
>assertion, it simply will not do to substantiate the claim for an alleged
>protein ceiling. For substantiation, we need a lab or clinical study study
>that shows that "toxicity" occurs if a human ingests more than 35%
>protein,
>and provides a list of symptoms and signs of "protein toxicity".
Like I have read, the protein ceiling is average in humans 35%, 40% beeing
quoted as a limit, while in the oldest references from Cordaine he used to
mention a range up to 50%.
My reference was based on some review of contemporary h/g's - but they have
experience in the topic.
Stefanssons free choice was 80% fat and 20% meat calories. Because of
"nausea".
What makes up the symptoms?
Just ask what are the symptoms of rabbit starvation. Ray Audette may know.
Inuit do know. Rabbit starvation leads to death in a few months, what
happens before?
Ammonium toxicity? Danger of kidney failure?
> Phillip
>Thrift appears to be exceeding your ceiling without toxicity, without ill
>effects, so I have my doubts that such a ceiling is so low as you imply.
So, Philip eats 40%. That would be in the upper end of individual
variability.
If a person really *uses* a bigger part of amino acids for structural
purposes, the part passed on to gluconeogenesis will be a little smaller.
Maybe Philip's body building costs the life of more body cells (additional
free radicals), so he needs more.
It is difficult to measure anyway.
The computation in all honor, but maybe the real life chicken parts had a
few percent *more* fat that the tables showed. Or a little more more fat is
used for cooking and frying as in the computation (0).
Anyway Philip obviously lives at the upper end of the possible.
Maybe he can tell what happens if he eats a little less fat/more lean for a
few days.
>I don't have time to search the paleodiet archives. You are the one making
>the assertion so the burden of proof is on you, not on me. Show me the
>stuff.
Time is money, at least for me.
But I'm interested in the topic and I'm collecting stuff.
So, to your service a few examples.
How about these (1 additional):
Speth has written extensively about excess dietary protein and it seems
likely that unless sufficient carbohydrate or fat are available, the
calories present in wild, lean game animals can only be eaten in limited
quantities.(Speth JD. Early hominid hunting and scavenging: the role of
meat as an energy source. J Hum Evol 1989;18:329-43; Speth et al.
Energy source, protein metabolism, and Hunter-Gatherer subsistence
strategies. J Anthropol Archaeology 1983;2:1-31).
>I recently read several resources re. tubers, and their prevalence in a
>savannah environment (water storage organs for plants), and am inclined now
>to agree that tubers probably were/are a significant part, even a staple,
>of paleodiet.
I support this. Not only because they are better composed as other sources,
they are also a reliable source, all year round. They are a new food
resource for humans, compared to earlier primates- which don't dig.
>> Then, the wild game is nearly a protein only resource. It's a lousy fat
>> resource (2-4%).
>
>I think you keep forgetting that there is more fat on game than what occurs
>in the muscle meats. Skin, eyes, brain, marrow, visceral fat, tongue, fat
>pads on various parts of the body (like the fat pads on our feet and
palms),
>special fat depots (insurance against starvation)--this applies even to
>desert animals (e.g. camels), there is more fat than you think, especially
>in autumn--but not as much as some others think.
There's a study.
http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?A2=ind9803&L=paleodiet&P=R123 :
"...the fat content of wild game animals. My colleague, Boyd Eaton, has
previously summarized the fat content of lean game muscle meat (1), but
did not present data on total carcass fat content.
Speth (2) has compiled data from 33 analyses of whole body fat
% of 11 different species of wild ungulates. The mean value of 3.6%.."
So, it does include the additional fatty items you list.
Autumns and fat.. in northern Regions like Europe there are stronger seasons
than in the savannah. Savannah autumn:
"During late summer & early fall ... some African species have been shown to
have values as high as 6%. "
Not so much more, 4 to 5%.
After some time, even in the north: "However, remember that after the rut
and into winter total fat % drops back down to an average of 1.3% (2) for
caribou."
> I get 100 percent grass
>fed beef and lamb and there is a fair amount of extramuscular fat on it,
>enough to make some very rich ground meat--but it is not nearly as rich as
>grain fed meat.
Udo Erasmus points out that there's the possibility of a different kind of
fats in different kind of animal keeping and/or races. Like shown by Zebu
Cattle and other more primitive agricultiralists.
Still not really like paleolithic meat (see below), but fulfilling Udo's
requirements of composition.
Amadeus
.. some more quotes..
http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?A2=ind9709&L=paleodiet&P=R1411
In The Paleolithic Prescription (PP), Eaton et al. construct an
average diet for Late Paleolithic humans that has 21% of total
calories coming from fat (slightlyly less than half from animal
sources). The amount of animal fat is based on the average fat
content of 43 species of present-day wild game from three
continents. The average is 4.3%, with a range from around 1-8%.
This is far below choice beef sirloin at 27%.
http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?A2=ind9710&L=paleodiet&P=R920
Wild animals
almost always show a seasonal variation in storage fat, and even the
very fattest wild land mammals contain 60-75% less total fat than the
average domesticated animal. Thus, until the advent of the
"Agricultural Revolution", it would have been extremely difficult, or
perhaps impossible, to eat high levels of saturated fat on a daily
basis throughout the year.
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