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My original post prompted a variety of mixed comments which are below for
those interested. Only one was not added due to the EXTREMELY long length
which made it impossible to summarize, sorry.

Some agreed, some posted regarding the cruelty of animals anyway stating
perhaps that is the real reason for the diet, some think I'm just
irritated, and some think I'm just irritating.  I think, especially for
"celiac's", it is extremely important to examine ANY diet with care before
partaking in it.  IN MY OPINION, a vegan diet excludes foods which we were
designed to thrive on.  While no animal products are allowed on the vegan
diet the foundation itself is broken with an infants first meal, breast
milk, animal product, which is in direct conflict of the vegan diet.  I
believe the fact that we do nurse our young, confirms the need and
importance of animal products in our diets.  Regardless of my point of
view, I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments and wish you all good
health -Patti
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Hi Patti!

Great questions! Below are some answers for you...let me know if I can
help more.

Thanks for asking!!!

SNIP..... cut due to excessive length
----
Hello Patti,
I am a vegetarian and not a vegan, but as I understand things the answers
to your comments are as follows:  The definition "one that consumes no
animal food or dairy products" means no food derived from ANOTHER animal
species.  Vegan mothers would usually choose to breastfeed their children
using the food evolved by nature for human babies, ie.  human breastmilk
(though I'm sure if necessary they could also use soy-based formula
designed for babies with milk allergies who cannot be breastfed).  In fact,
there are plenty of studies which show that milk from cows (or any other
animal species) is tailor-made for the young of that particular species and
that even when it is considerably modified to be made suitable for a
different species (eg.  human) it is never as good as the mother's
breastmilk.  Several peoples of various racial origins find it inherently
difficult to digest milk (other than breastmilk) and until recently (ie.
advancing Westernization) it did not form part of the human diet in large
areas of the world.  It is also one of the causes of allergies.  Vitamin
B12 is important to everyone not just coeliacs and if there wasn't enough
of it in a vegan diet, vegans wouldn't live to a ripe old age - yet many of
them do just that.

There are a number of sources of B12 which are non-animal in origin. My
yeast extract, for example is high in non-animal vitamin B12. I'm sure
people who are actually vegan will list many others.

Best GF wishes
----
Very few people who eat vegan actually manage to swing it - you would be
amazed at how many "vegans" I have talked to who eat soy cheese - contains
casein and whey - or who eat things with sodium casseinate - (most soy
products contain this) or other non-dairy things - derived from cow's milk.
Hardly anyone knows that margarine - except for a couple brands - contains
cow's milk Basic fact is that we as humans have incisors and eye teeth
which were designed to rip and chew meat.  Therefore, it is logical that
the rest of our bodies are designed to process and grow using meat.  Trying
to deny this and eat no animal products is not healthy when our bodies were
designed to do this.  On the other side, cow's milk is designed for baby
cows not for humans so I'm not advocating drinking it.

Now I'll get off my soap box :-)
-----
Patti, I think the vegan is just dedicated to avoiding dairy from other
animals, not mother's milk.

Also, being a vegan is a personal choice. None of the vegans I know would
decide for their child that they too had to be vegan, and if they do I hope
they have better luck than we did trying to just keep our kids off sweets
:) So by the time a child is old enough to make such a personal choice she
should be able to get along without milk fine, IF she gets plenty of milk
and also takes her folic acid supplements so she can assimilate B12 and
iron efficiently.

But I might also add that when you limit the responses to your argument to
those other than the reason that they don't want to hurt animals, you have
eliminated the principle reason that most of them make that choice. Not
just that they don't like the idea of killing and eating animals, but
mainly because of the way animals are tortured when we raise them to eat.
For instance, most commercially grown chickens now are raised with 25 birds
in a small pen so short they cannot stand up. They have their upper beak
cut off so they can't peck each other. This is to make the wings and legs
closer to white meat, since when a bird exercises a muscle, that meat turns
very dark. Hence when you eat the breast of a flying bird, like duck or
quail, the meat is dark, not white. KFC has bred a chicken with very few
feathers, legs they cannot stand on etc., and they keep them so crowded and
dosed with penicillin I wouldn't want to eat one. At least we can still
find a few free-range chickens.

Some of the vegans, of course, are prepared for the short-comings and
penalties of eating such a diet because of their beliefs. But also, if they
study the issue and eat right, they can eat quite healthily in spite of
that diet.

BTW, I'm not even close to being a vegatarian, much less vegan, but I do
respect those who make that choice. I just wish they didn't almost all wear
leather shoes, and many drive cars with all leather upholstery :)
----
Oh, forgot to mention what raising so many animals to satiate our meat
cravings does to the environment: 1. the constant methane gas given off by
cattle, raised for either dairy products or meat, as they chew the cud is a
big item in the greenhouse effect; 2. the unbelievable amount of animal
waste every year is getting beyond our ability to handle, and in some
states in the southeast especially the raising of pigs has absolutely
ruined the water and environment, as have the immense number of
commercially grown chickens in Arkansas, once a beautiful state,
believe it or not :)

Actually I would think that at this point we should all try to start
cutting back drastically on our use of animal products, for us, if not for
them.
----
Patti, Right on.
----
Patti-
Hmmm, I'm not exactly sure how to respond to your post because the points
you used really did not have much to do with the vegan diet. Yes, vegans
avoid all things animal to include honey, eggs, etc.
#1 Vegans can still nurse. There is nothing that says they cannot "feed
their young" nor nothing that says a mother has to drink cow's milk in order
to do so. We are the only species who drinks another animal's milk, and
does so after it is weaned. Many if not most babies are born or develop
allergies to milk, and it has been proven that milk is indicated in causing
the many ear infections/problems in the young. Many babies I know have been
put on soy milk because of the allergy problem.
#2 I had pernicious anemia (B-12 deficiency) which was a missed indicator of
celiac disease. Now that I absorb what I eat, I no longer have a B-12
deficiency. I have, too, read that vegans could be at some risk of B-12
deficiency; that is far and away easily prevented with supplements, not
necessarily with meat.

Vegetarians have time and again been proven to be more healthy than
non-vegetarians at most any age. The milk industry has sold Americans a
major bundle of falsehoods, not to mention the meat industry. I can tell
you that I have improved celiac-caused osteoporosis by a vegetarian diet and
supplements - no milk, no meat. It is also a fact that Dr. Dean Ornish's
vegetarian, low-fat diet program is the only one that has been approved by
insurance companies for treatment of heart disease.

I appreciate the tone of your post and know it was well-intentioned. I just
wouldn't buy all the propaganda that most of the food industries sell.
----
Bravo Patti,
I'm sure glad you posted your comments. I've dithered about posting a
refutation of these vegan posts. On one hand, I'm concerned about the folks
who are buying this perspective. On the other hand, I don't want to argue
with everyone I don't agree with. Your post, I think struck just the right
balance. It wasn't antagonistic, but it sure set out a couple of important
issues that folks ought to be looking at before they embrace a vegan
perspective.
----
I'm not sure what you meant by saying that being vegan would make it
impossible to feed one's child. Veganism does not exclude human milk to
be used by human children. Yes, we are mammals, and we are designed to
nurse our young. Our milk is intended to feed our young. Cow's milk
(by not only vegan view) is intended for baby cows. This is a perfect
example of veganism.

B12 is not just a concern with vegans. It also concerns vegetarians as
well. B12 is usually found in red meats. Solgar makes a gluten free,
animal free, sublingual B12. Smaller amounts of B12 can be found in sea
vegetables and brewer's yeast.

The general principals of veganism are that animals aren't to be
exploited for anything--whether it's meat or a product that doens't
requiring killing the animal-for instance, honey or wool.

It would be foolish for anyone to say that veganism is the way to go for
people with celiac disease. It is merely a choice, partly based on
moral or political beliefs. Nutritional quality of the diet, as it is
with all dietary practices, is the responsibility of the individual.
Knowing how to prepare foods to meet your nutritional needs and when to
take supplements for insurance of actually meeting those needs is
something that everyone, omnivore, carnivore, or vegetarian, must do.
----
your opinion is fine, but you obviously have a strong one and does "slam" or
put down others who are vegan. And I don't beleive your facts are straight
regarding a healthy diet, if one researches and does the vegan or vegetarian
diet correctly, then there should be no deficiency in certain nutrients and
vitamins and would be able to "survive", whether its from other sources of
foods or supplements.

I think you can let people eat the way they want to eat and is not necessary
to start an e-mail war about this topic on the celiac listserv!
----
I'm sorry that you feel that way Patty. My celiac son has been vegan since he
was born and it has done nothing but help him. My older daughter ate the
Standard American Diet (SAD) up until that point. I saw major differences
between the two.

My son has never been sick, my daughter suffered the "normal"amount of
illnesses as a baby and toddler.

My son is now 3 1/2 and growing beautifully. We have all seen major
improvements in our health since becoming vegan.

I don't understand your comment about nursing our young. I breastfed both of
my kids. The thing is, that mammals quit nursing their young and wean them
off of their milk, even cows stop nursing their young. BUT, we continue to
give our kids cows milk long after they are weaned from breast milk. That
just doesn't make sense.

Unfortunately, people like yourself, don't quite have a clue as to the
difference what you eat can make until you give it a try. You get so used to
living with illness, diseases, aches, pains, headaches, heartburn,
constipation, low energy,sleeplessness, etc... that you don't know what it is
like to live without all of that.

I hope I have not come off in a bad way to you, I just don't feel like what
you had to say was anything worthy of posting to the list. Now, if you go
vegan and eat whole foods, by all means let us know how you feel.
----
Patti, you're right. I'm sure you'll get tons of comments about this one. As
celiacs, we are so limited. Why would anyone intentionally eliminate things
from their diets that they don't have to?
----
I am not a vegan myself, not even a vegetarian, but as I understand it,
same-species milk, i.e. breastmilk for humans is w/in vegan guidelines,
but not milk from OTHER species (cows, goats, yaks, etc.)
----
Also not intended as a slam in any way ...

I don't think the argument that we humans feed babies our own milk quite
holds. Imagine, in that case, the chagrin of the mother with
cracked/bleeding nipples (which can be easily resolved with better
technique, but is fairly common in the early days with a first nursling).
'Help! The baby's turning into a vampire!'
----
Let me preface with, we are not vegans (my family I mean). If you insist on
taking the definition so literally that you would exclude breastfeeding ones
own children from the definition, I believe you must have some bee in your
bonnet about veganism -- no offense intended. Looking at non-human aniomals
who most would consider vegan, like rabbits -- they still nurse their young,
however, as far as I'm aware, eat no insects or animal products once weaned.
And your B12 comment is debatable. I don't know how widely accepted it is in
mainstream science, but many doctors and scientists who advocate veganism
for health reasons believe that B12 is made in your intestines if your
healthy (I don't know off hand whether it's the upper or lower). Of course,
being a celiac is not being healthy. And there are sea veggies and other
more obscure veggies that do offer B12 which certainly if humans had a wide
variety of food and didn't rely on animal products they would eat.
----
Thanks for your comments, Patti.

I recently wrote a paper for my anthropology class about the human diet.
Based on studies of chimpanzees -- our closest relatives -- we should have a
minimum of 5% animal protein in the diet to maintain health and balance.
The other 95% is, of course, plant derived. For those looking for more
info, just check out books on the evolution of diet in primates.
As for B12, all B vitamins are water soluable. If you only take it in
suplement form, you have the most expensive urine in town. <-- This from my
Nutrition class. :) I won't bore you with the details of how vegans must
combine foods in order to get a complete protein. It took up too many
pages.