On 8 May 00, at 17:47, gordon wrote:

> Ken,
>
> > the only way to ascertain that [other species suffer] would be by
> > cross-species mind reading...
>
> Have you never stepped accidently on a dog's foot, or slammed a door on a
> cat's tale? If you are willing to argue that the resulting wailing and
> moaning is not empirical evidence of suffering in animals then you place
> yourself in the absurd positions of either the philosophical solipsist, or
> of the radical behaviorist who denies the reality of subjective experience
> in all animals including humans.
>
> If you want to attack PETA and/or ethical vegetarianism then I would suggest
> you find a credible argument.
>

One of the things that really bothered me about PETA was that one
of the leaders is a life-long diabetic and injects insulin.    "Human"
insulin hasn't been around all that long, so presumably she started
out on beef or pork insulin.  But she justifies it by saying that it
helps her do more good for the cause.

It's ok for her to use insulin cuz she turns around and helps
animals.  uh huh.

Does she picket labs that use animals for medical research?  If so
(I don't know if she does or not), then it's a good thing for her
and her cause that early picketers didn't succeed...