>> i meant the exponential  attempt of human to remove themselves from their
>> source, from the natural environment that sustain them .
>
>Oh come on. This is the kind of romantic idealism to which Kirt and I were
>referring a couple of weeks back.

It is good that you refer to the sarcastic realism of KIrt , that way we got
a balance.
>
>If humans really "attempt to remove themselves from their source, from the
>natural environment that sustains them" then it because our natural
>environment is very cold and wet and uncomfortable and dangerous and
because
>we humans are smart enough to do something about it.

the environment become such when we try to protect ourselves from it.
BE in the cold for a while and you will not experience  it as COLD anymore.
that is what i mean by spinning out. americans will find the confortable
french home as cold , the french will find the mongol yourte as cold, and
the mongol will find the innuit  igloo as cold .

>We humans are an intelligent species. Because of our intelligence we were
>able to learn how to construct comfortable homes with heating systems and
>air-conditioning systems, and to construct and maintain the cities and
>factories and companies and governments that help us all to secure and
>protect these creature comforts.

i don't see anything smart about having to heat a house to a 25 degrees
celsius  to feel confortable and suffer from the cold when getting out, it
is  just becoming  slave of that level of temperature..and the energy that
you are going to spend to pay for it could be save to simply heat your body.
>
>Domesticated cats and dogs are probably among the smartest of animals.
>Would you claim that they too are attempting to "remove themselves from
>their source"? Or are they just very smart animals who know better than to
>refuse the luxury of riding along in life with the most advanced species on
>earth?

that point is interesting , because i  got  a female cat from a friend who
fed her,  processed cat foods ,we fed her a raw meat diet, got pregnant,  ,
had kittens took care of them til naturally weaned and disappeared .
i was seeing her from time to time in the 15 acres meadow in front of our
house, crossing it to hunt in the barn where she loved to hunt before she
left. she apparantly decided to go wild.
may be she didn't see the point to come back home to get some meat when our
garden was full of mices and birds.
.
the other option could be that we have been so mean to her by depriving her
from all the bounties of sophisticated cat foods that we find in
supermarket, that she  just decided to leave us.

But the fact that one day she came back to see  my newly born son and
myself,  while we were resting on the deck, let me think there was something
else quite attractive outthere.
for having myself chosen  to sleep in the tipi  standing in that field
instead of our cozy little insulated cabin , or prefering to graze in the
garden rather than to go in the fanciest restaurant, i can relate to her
choice.


\
>I suppose what disturbs me most is that you seem to have a low opinion of
>the amazing accomplishments of your own species. In my view humans are
>incredible, marvelous, almost miraculous creatures.

that sound  idealistic perception,  to me . But i agree with you , humans
are also all those things on top of being lost.

 As evidence I submit the
>momentous achievements of our species as we emerged from the animal kingdom
>almost to transcend it. I submit as evidence these awesome thinking
speaking
>singing loving writing calculating worshipping painting composing flying
>dancing space-travelling god-like beings that we are today. You see this
>evidence but rather than celebrate your humanity you choose instead to
>complain of problems and bemoan our fate.

i am not an idealist anymore because i realised my ideals of the past. And i
know that my ideal of today wil be the reality of tomorow. Just question of
time. Me too i believe in the incredible human potential to acomplish great
things My biggest accomplishment have been to be able to  recognised my
mistakes when i was not listening to what my idealism was allowing me to
envision.
i envision peoples awakening,  to   take CARE of the garden of eden , i see
peoples throwing clay pelleted seeds all over the desertified aeras ( even
using planes to do that)
 but sadly,  mostly because  they will have to , rather than by idealistic
choices. ( that is my sarcastic realism side to compensate for my romantic
idealism)

jean-claude