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Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:03:08 -0700
To: [log in to unmask]
From: Barbara Rhodes <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Public Officials Thoughts
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+== acb-l Message from Barbara Rhodes <[log in to unmask]> ==+
Hi listers!!!
Take a nice cool glass of water and your blood pressure pills!!! I can't
believe this exchange of information from this Mr. Powell.
Barbara Rhodes
From: "Waddell, Cynthia" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "'Tamez, Randy'" <[log in to unmask]>,
"'Rhodes, Barbara'"
<[log in to unmask]>,
"'Petersen, Roger'" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: FW: IRS & PDF
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:33:00 -0700
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Randy, Roger and Barbara-
I am forwarding a statement by a Mr. Powell who believes that PDF IRS and tax
filing forms do not need to be accessible to the blind community. His latest
comment, however, is for your review. I may be wrong but I believe that Mr.
Powell is a State of Wisconsin webmaster.
Cynthia
---------------------------------------------------
Cynthia D. Waddell
ADA Coordinator
City Manager Department
City of San Jose, CA USA
801 North First Street, Room 460
San Jose, CA 95110-1704
(408)277-4034
(408)971-0134 TTY
(408)277-3885 FAX
<http://www.rit.edu/~easi/webcast/cynthia.htm>http://www.rit.edu/~easi/webc
ast/cynthia.htm
http://www.aasa.dshs.wa.gov/access/waddell.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: James Powell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 7:30 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: IRS & PDF
Let me ask the blind people ...if you think you can help us with accessibility
problems ...why don't YOU become the webmasters?!
We advertise such positions ...and who applies?? ....of course ..those who are
able to see! Some of us webmasters could use some feedback ....most state
websites have email to the webmasters ...I don't see you all making use of it!
Plus, some of the webmasters welcome feedback, if presented in a nice way to
foster collaberation! (in other words ..stay away from accusatory tones)
A sad ironic case, me thinks.
jp
At 08:17 PM 7/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
> I disagree to some extent. It is attitudes like that which you display
> that do need to be discussed in public. A good batch of the accessibility
> problems come when people sit and decide exactly what they think those of
> us with disabilities will and won't need. Let us decide for ourselves and
> let the attitudes of people who sit back and try and tell those of us with
> disabilities what we need see the light of public exposure.
>
> You sat back and proclaimed loud and clear that you thought the .pdf forms
> were this great boon to accessibility. Have you tried completing the forms
> with the Acrobat accessibility plugin? I strongly doubt it because if you
> had you'd have realized what a joke it is, and a sad one at that, to those
> of us who wasted our time trying to do so.
>
> At 09:47 PM 7/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >We've gotten way off track here .....
> >
> >These kinds of exchanges are not meant to be aired out on the e-list. It's
> >better to do it privately!
> >
> >The final thought: some forms are for large corporations, some for
> >individuals and still others for what-not. I don't know which forms you
> >will need, but we try to keep the majority (or popular/most oft-requested)
> >so that we get a reasonably represented tax payer audience. It is those
> >few forms that most will use.
> >
> >Previous postings uncovered some pages that are not readily accessible, but
> >one thing for sure, we can NOT please EVERYONE. I will take those pages
> >and work with the webmaster, but it will take time. Thank you to those who
> >brought them to my attention.
> >
> >Now, for a site in comparison -- look at Connecticut's Dept of Taxation
> >website. A lot of it is poor design, IN MY OPINION. There are websites
> >that are better that ours, but we strive to do the best we can.
> >
> >Now, lets get back to the original topic of this thread:
> >
> >I have a packet of info at work ...that may be an alternative to
> >PDF. While the name of the software package exclude my mind at the moment,
> >I do not know much about that because I haven't "dived" into it yet.
> >
> >So, if PDF is graphical at best, then there is no one good way to represent
> >a form accurately except in perhaps PageMaker or Word 97. BUT, we the
> >forms designers would tick off a lot of the people with complains of LONG
> >forms! So, we're back to square one.
> >
> >jp
> >
> >At 02:25 PM 7/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >>And just exactly how do you know what forms are and are not needed by
> >>people who are blind? Are you the universal guardian of what those of us
> >>who are blind need? You have no idea who I am for example so how can you
> >>know what forms I'm going to need?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>At 08:39 PM 7/20/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >NOT ALL forms are needed by the blind persons. That org chart .....is a
> >> >mess, that's for sure. It isn't the best ...but there is no text font
> size
> >> >small enough to make it work in HTML!
> >> >
> >> >We have our standards that we have to adhere to, and most Internet
> >> >standards are beyond our control! (Talk to badger.state.wi.us's
> webmaster
> >> >about those). Some of the rules they have are stupid, too ......that's
> one
> >> >reason why we're not 100% accessible, BUT, we do have other ways to get
> the
> >> >material out.
> >> >
> >> >jp
> >> >
> >> >At 08:30 PM 7/20/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >>True, no arguments there ....but the technology's there to take care of
> >> >>it. There ARE tools out there that these blind people use to enable
> access
> >> >>...called SCREEN READERS and they do a pretty good job.
> >> >>
> >> >>We have 2 legally blind persons within in our department and THEY do
> surf
> >> >>the webs. They do have "some" vision, however. They have a close
> >> >>relationship with the webmaster and me.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>jp
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>At 11:40 AM 7/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >> >>>Our view is that since PDF's are a graphical medium, they are
> inherently
> >> >>>inaccessible for persons who don't get their information from images.
> I
> >> >>>question whether your site, with no text alternative to the PDF
> forms, is
> >> >>>really usable by persons who are blind.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>> From: [log in to unmask]
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:03 AM
> >> >>> To: Smith, Luther
> >> >>> Subject: re: IRS & PDF
> >> >>>
> >> >>> That's a pretty narrow view of accessibility.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Adobe Acrobat has features that make PDFs one of hte
> >> great
> >> >>>tools in filling forms out. Fill-able forms!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Wisconsin's Dept of Revenue, we have PDF forms and
> >> >>>instructions available on the Internet (http://www.dor.state.wi.us)
> >> and our
> >> >>>website is rated one of the best ones. Some of these forms are
> fill-able
> >> >>>and we have not heard of any complains about accessibility, but
> positive
> >> >>>ones. One fill-able form proved to be a popular hit, so we're trying
> to
> >> >>>expand our selection of fill-able forms for this yax year.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> So, I question your definition of accessible file
> >> formats.
> >> >>>Agree that Postscript and PCL aren't exactly accessible (they're
> printer
> >> >>>languages!)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> So, I would re-visit that accessisibility definition
> that
> >> >>>you have.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Other than that .......you got HTML and scripts as one
> >> >>>option.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> jp
> >> >>
> >> >>===================
> >> >>Jim Powell
> >> >>[log in to unmask]
> >> >
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Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:58:27 -0700
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From: Barbara Rhodes <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: IRS & PDF
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Hi all --
FYI
Barbara Rhodes
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 3:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: IRS & PDF
Mr. Powell,
The reason I am responding to your note below is that I believe it is very
important that we work on building bridges between those of us who are blind
and those persons who develop software and web pages. It is easy to understand
that persons developing software find our calls for accessibility to be
frustrating. As a blind computer user, I can also understand the frustration I
read in some of the messages that have been written in response to yours.
Please understand that for at least fifteen years, we as blind people have seen
great advances for us where computer information and computer access is
concerned. In the early 1990's, we could function on the job in ways that
permitted us to interact with our fellow workers that was unheard of in years
passed. During the past seven or eight years, though, this capability has
gradually been taken away from us. This has usually not happened because of
improved functionality, but rather so the presentation would look better, or at
least more interesting, visually. Nobody would consider replacing a wheelchair
ramp with an escalator because escalators were better for general access. Yet,
that is precisely what some of today's progress feels like to us, even though
the analogy may not be a perfect one.
Please understand that some of us have been at this for a long time. At times,
our patience may not always be at the level that we would like. On the other
hand, also understand that what you may see as an infringement on your
creativity, a roadblock for progress, or whatever other similar associations
you might feel are appropriate, are to us vehicles to getting and keeping
employment, to do business without hiring help thereby saving money, and simply
increasing our opportunity to become a contributing part of society. Some large
entities pretty much ignored us for years while we remained patient, seeming to
respond when we enlisted the interest of government agencies. We have an awful
lot riding on what software and web page developers do.
As I said at the outset, I hope this serves to help build bridges rather than
to dig moats. Thanks in advance for considering my thoughts as expressed here.
Steve Jacobson
National Federation of the Blind
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