Trisha-

I still think you and I can be in the same book, if not the same page, when
it comes to discipline and childrearing.

No, I'm certainly don't think you're raising a disaster, and you have the
testimony of other listmembers that know you personallly to attest that.
Amber seems like the gem of her namesake and I'm sure you are doing 110% in
your efforts to be the best parent possible.

Maybe I can flesh out a bit where I'm coming from:

On the idea of corporal punishment--

Just as the judge does not hand down 10 year sentences for jaywalking,
punishment should obviously be in accord with the severity of the crime, OR,
the immediacy of the effect that's needed.  Case in point:  If I see my
young son trot down the driveway into oncoming traffic, and I am lucky
enough to catch him before he is struck by a car, then my punishment will be
swift and vigorous--and I do mean plenty of both.  I want to make such an
instantaneous and lasting impression on his little mind that he will avoid
the street at all costs--or at least stop dead in his tracks when I scream
for him to stop.  Is this abuse?  Not in this context.  Not considering the
alternative.  Or take, for example, catching him at the point of pulling a
pot of boiling water from the stove.  My grabbing his hand and giving it a
good sharp smack has an immediacy and "stickiness" that no amount of just
saying, "Don't touch--that's hot!" can duplicate.

In our house, our philosophy is that corporal punishment should be scaled
down as the child's ability to reason goes up.  With the six-year old, she
can generally choose her level of punishment "cafeteria style" depending on
her response to less draconian measures.  For example, "talking back"
usually results in being sent to her room--the length of time dependent on
the crime.  If she refuses to go to her room and continues to "talk back"
then we add spanking to the punishment.  Note that even if she is spanked,
that still doesn't mean she doesn't have to do "room time".  It's a reminder
that the next time she disobeys and needs to go upstairs, additional
punishment will be meted out if she doesn't comply.

Obviously as she ages and understands our reasoning behind our "rules", the
need for physical discipline decreases.

I'd like to add too that we try as much as possible to separate our anger
from the punishment.  When Anna gets a spanking we try to use matter-of-fact
tones in our speech (no yelling, certainly no "idle threats"--if we she say
she's going to get popped--she does).  Also, after any punishment--spanking,
time-out, etc., we always talk to her and assure her that our love for her
is not diminished by her infraction.  Nor does her punishment indicate same.

Trisha, you and I have discussed back and forth our stances where we stand
on areas of faith.  You know that I am an active Christian and I know that
you embrace Paganism.  I bring this up because there is a facet to Laura's
and my discpline that we use sometimes to illustrate our faith to our kids.
You know that the central tenet of Christianity is that humankind is a group
of faulted beings.  I believe that no matter how hard I may try, every day I
do things against the nature of my God.  Because of this, I understand that
in my natural state there is an unbridgable gap between me and my creator.
Using human agency He has said that one must be perfect to be in His
presence.  Unwilling for this to happen to the entire human race, he offered
himself up to "pay" for that imperfection.  Now humor me here, if you
please.  I know you know this story and tire of its message, but there is a
point to be made here:

At times--and this has to be done very rarely to be effective--Anna will do
something wrong.  She knows ahead of time what the punishment will be, but
decides to disobey anyway.  Say, for example, she must clean her room before
playing with her friends.  The punishment for failing to do so is banishment
to her room for two hours.  She gets ready to play, but the room is still
trashed.  Does she deserve two hours of "time out"?  Of course!  Instead, I
take her aside and say something like, "Did you clean your room?"

"No."

"You knew that you'd get a time out and not be able to play if you
disobeyed, right?"

"But, but, but..."

"You knew that, right?"

"Yes" (through tears)

"Ok. Then this is the deal.  I'm going to take your punishment.  I'm going
to stay up here in your room for two hours while you play."

Now Anna's a smart kid.  She knew all along that she was being disobedient,
yet she made a choice that she knew would yield negative results.  Can you
imagine her surprise at learning she doesn't have to take the punishment for
that?  Can you imagine her feelings of, yes, "shame", at the realization
that her Dad will take her place?

At that point I tell her to go out and play and I go in her room and close
the door.  A good bit of the time I can see that she's looking at her
bedroom window, to see if I'm really taking her rap and not cheating.  She
comes back in two hours later (after I've had a good nap ;>)  ) and finds
I'm still there.  It makes an impression.  I'm doubly pleased when she can
make the connection between that and what I believe as a Christian.

Regarding the idea of parent as buddy:  Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could
have been.  My point was not that there is anything wrong with having an
incredibly close, incredibly fun relationship with your children, but to
maintain a "parent-child" relationship.

Let me illustrate this with an example from my oldest (16) daughter's life:
Her mom left for a 16 year-old boy two weeks after her 30th birthday.  She
married the kid as soon as he was of legal age and had a child by him ten
months later.  The marriage was rocky at best and ended in divorce a few
years later.  Now the situation we have is a woman with a "siege" mentality
against the world ("all my problems are someone else's fault"), and
emotionally barricades herself at home with her two kids.  My daughter has
unwittingly taken on the role of surrogate mate and confidante for her "woe
is me" mom, because she (Mom) is not stepping up to the plate, relationally,
with other adults.  This is unhealthy as it has bred a view of the world for
my daughter as seen through her Mom's eyes.  So the girl is torn between a
desire to escape the smothering "friendship" demands of her Mom and by a
desire to please and curry favor.  I'm no prophet, but I can bet that when
Adrienne leaves for college that a number of things will happen:

1)  Adrienne is going to "weird out" her roomates for a while because her
Mom's skewed social perspective is one that she's shared for years.  She's a
smart kid (4.0 GPA), but does not do well relationally.  Given time and a
change of environment, my hope is that her world-view becomes more normative
and less clouded by parental paranoia.

2)  Adrienne's mom will panic in that her emotional life-jacket is no longer
at home.  Will she use the 10 year-old sister as a surrogate?  Probably.

3)  Mom's bitterness will, sadly, increase.  Her paranoia--"the world has it
in for me"--could likely expand into full-blown schizophrenia.  I shudder at
the forms this could manifest and I feel truly, truly saddened by the impact
it will have on Adrienne's sister.

With this scenario in mind, I think it's even more important for adolescents
with any sort of disability to have a circle of peer friendships.  Just as
important, in my opinion, is that the disabled kid have as many non-disabled
friends as disabled to prevent a "victim" mentality.  I use the voice of
personal experience here.

None of what I've said here is intended to speak into your life personally,
or how you relate to your daughter.  I'm just speaking from my own
observations and experiences--seeing over the years what works and what
doesn't.

On a personal note, your efforts at raising Amber alone, with all of your
own physical and emotional worries, are laudable.  I pray God grants you the
strength and longevity to have as much fun with your grandkids as you do
with Amber.

-Kyle





-----Original Message-----
From: Trisha Cummings [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 5:02 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Parenting Series 1 - Enjoying Each Child as an Individaul


Oh Kyle!!!

          Then I am raising a first rate disaster something along the lines
of the Titanic.  I do remember when I was umemployed and in Incest Survivor
Therpay - the therapist in an effort to force me to behave in a manner she
wanted - threatened to have Fairfax County take Amber away from me.
Needless to say I was in tears when I arrived back home, and Rick who was
living with us at the time - was furious and he said something really
interesting then - That she would not just be losing her mother - she would
be losing her best friend,too.  Another incident I remember is my mother
being reall indignant becasue Amber and I where giggling and be silly and my
Mother thought this stupid - I was the Mother I was not to be her friend. I
don't understand why I can't be both. Amber and for the most part make
decisions together - we discuss them, I have the final authority on the
decision. One of the things that always puzzles me is - why people who spend
18 years telling their child what to do - suddenly expect their 19 year to
act like an adult and be able to make decisions. The decision making process
is a learning from trial and error. I would be willing to bet you make
better decisions now than when you where 19. I taught Amber how to make
decisions - beginning when she was baby - we started small - I chose several
toys or dolls I thought appropriate and would then have her chose the one
she wanted. Later, she was allowed to chose one goody when we went shopping.
She learned young about bad choices - I would point out good or bad things
but she made the choice. When she was 7, she was invited to two birthday
parties and she didn't know which one to accept. She fianlly said - you
chose you are the adult, and I said you chose its your life. If you can't
make simple decisions now - that won't have really bad consquences - how
will ever make adult ones where there are serious consequences.  Now Amber
has to be more responsible also becasue there is no father in this house -
and Mom has to work two jobs. This means I need to trust her to be
resonsible and get up and go to school by herself - She has been doing this
since she was 10. Last year she missed the school bus twice and her auntie
Cin who lives down the street takes her then. I need to know she will behave
on her own. This means I have to have commuicated real values not just - I
won't do until she is gone so I won't get spanked - but I won't do it
becasue - Mom has requested I not do it or she understand why its not to be
done. Also the constant spectre that I rarely elude to is simply - I have
been fighting Cancer since she was a baby - I may never see her graduate
from high school, I may not see her get married, get her first job or have
her first child - But I can give her all the love I have to give while I am
here, I can give her the gift of wings with a safety net for now - I can
leave her equiped to handle life when I am gone. We can discuss things on
long walks or car trips to and from doctors. I am proud of her, and I never
forget that when we kiss goodbye for the morning - it maybe forever. Most
people live life like its forever - its not.  Most of the adults I know evny
my relationship with my daughter - they never got to know their parents or
be friends - the parents where busy being parents - Amber will have the
memory of both -  You know how when you are on vacation and that last day
you try to do everything and its not long enough - that's what life is like.
I read all the stuff - and think about and chose the things that make sense.
Yes, some of the stuff is way to permissive am I willing to believe it was
written by someone who was ruled. Its a backlash - look around at the adults
you know - they are the product of their parents - scarey isn't it.  Oh
well, Amber is pouting - I have been on the computer to long - End of Rant

                                            Brightest Blessings
                                                    Trisha


>Thinking about this parenting business...
>
>It occurs to me that pop psychology is encouraging us as parents to be less
>and less authoritative (I didn't say authoritarian), less disciplining
>(teaching), and to "buddy-up" more with our children.
>
>You know, my kids don't need me to be a pal or a buddy.  That's what other
>kids are for.  There's plenty of time for being "best friends" when they
are
>grown.  What they need is for me to be a dad--a role model, a teacher, a
>disciplinarian that, yes, "lays down the law".
>
>I'm not terribly concerned with how society treats my child--able bodied or
>not.  My concern is how my child treats society.  The responsibility for
>that lies totally on mine and my spouse's--if I'm married--shoulders.  It
is
>not the school's responsibility, it is not the government's responsibility,
>it's not the responsibility of some nebulous "village".  I am responsible
>for instilling respect, honesty, charitable love and virtue in this child.
>The child has the responsibility, over time, to learn and apply these
>principles--to develop an "other"-centerd perspective instead of a
>self-centered perspective.
>
>Does that mean I can't enjoy my kids, long to be with them when I'm at
work,
>have great fun?  Of course not!  It simply means that they understand that
>there is a hierarchy where I as the parent am the family's leader until
>there come such a time as they leave my care.  Anything outside of that
>design is a prescription for disaster.
>
>-Kyle