On Mon, 8 May 2000 17:47:27 -0400, gordon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Ken,
>
>> the only way to ascertain that [other species suffer] would be by
>> cross-species mind reading...
>
>Have you never stepped accidently on a dog's foot, or slammed a door on a
>cat's tale? If you are willing to argue that the resulting wailing and
>moaning is not empirical evidence of suffering in animals then you place
>yourself in the absurd positions of either the philosophical solipsist, or
>of the radical behaviorist who denies the reality of subjective experience
>in all animals including humans.
>
>If you want to attack PETA and/or ethical vegetarianism then I would suggest
>you find a credible argument.

"Absurd" and "credible" are just value judgements.

I am sure that the Sony Electronic Dog is programmed to make the same reaction
if you stepped on its tail.   Does the Sony Electronic Dog suffer ?

We have emotional reactions that when we see other species reacting in ways
similar to the way that we would, that they must be experiencing the same thing.

But this is an "anthropomorphism".

 (an´thr?-p?-môr?fiz´?m) noun
Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate
objects, animals, or natural phenomena. *

From the statements of PETA spokespeople in the media, this emotional reaction
seems to be central to the movement (although I concede the possibility of some
central person writing organization mission documents that actually knows what a
philosophical solipsist is).

By the way, my viewpoint is not that only human beings have subjective
experience (although that is a possibility) - just that ascribing that only to
"animals" is arbitrary (if we go back to my original statement).  In fact, there
is a famous book from the 70s called "The Findhorn Garden" that posits that
plants also have experiences.   (And there was a wacky episode of "Lost In
Space" in the mid-60s where the protagonists are accused by sentient plants of
being "animal-centric", and the current series "Farscape" has a sentient plant
as one of its stars - although they have yet to explain why a plant needs large
breasts :-) .)

=======
* Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third
Edition Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version
licensed from Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products N.V., further reproduction and
distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United
States. All rights reserved.
--
Cheers,

Ken
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