Dan Koenig writes: > Martin, your numerous contributions leave me the impression of a > principled and well intentioned person who wants the right thing to > happen. However, I think that you give up too easily on pacifism. > Think of the progress that resulted from Ghandi, Mandela, and masses > of people involved in anti-slavery movements, labour movements, > women's movements, environmental movements, peace movements, and so > many more. There will not be a utopia in this plane of existence, > but change and improvements do occur, often quite improbably so. > History, including current history, is full of examples of this. It > may seem improbable, but then again people of our generation also > didn't believe that the Iron Curtain would be voluntarily removed, > did they? Maybe we limit ourselves too much by imagining that > something can't be done instead of commiting ourselves to making it > happen. I have no argument with that. I mean that it sets up a "battle line" between the pacifist and the system, and the analogy I will use is the man who builds a sea wall to protect his house from the pounding waves. He measures success by the fact that his house continues to stand, but he must forever expend resources to keep it that way, because the system, in this case the ocean, has not changed. It is natural for the waves to pound against his sea wall. It will never relent because the nature of that system is for the tide to rise and fall. His house will continue to stand as long as he expends the necessary resources, unless a hurican comes through and knocks it down, which is also in the structure of the system. If the man could change the structure of the ocean, he wouldn't have to waste resources fighting it (don't raise the objection of tampering with nature; I don't mean the analogy to go that far). In the present case, we have a system in operation, analyzed at length by Chomsky and others. I am thankful that there are pacifists and non-violent movements. I don't mean to minimize their achievements, not do I mean to divert resources away from them. But they don't change the systems they oppose. They move the battle lines, leaving the systems they oppose in place. martin Martin Smith Email: [log in to unmask] P.O. Box 1034 Bekkajordet Tel. : +47 330 35700 N-3194 HORTEN, Norway Fax. : +47 330 35701