OK, Rex, between your posts and the chats I've had with an organic grower friend of mine a couple years ago, I'm about ready to pop for a refractometer. Perhaps you can steer me in the right direction for a mail-order source? And does a gizmo usually include the charts or is there a separate source for those? And while we're at it, can you recommend a source of reading material for a beginning orchardist. We are moving onto six acres in June and will be developing it. The permaculture stuff leaves me a little cold overall. As does Steiner--though you may dig either one, I don't know. But what I'm saying is I'd like a reference that is practical not philosophical...if that makes any sense. Thanks for your posts--I have enjoyed them greatly. BTW, I live in Hawaii, big island. Cheers, Kirt Secola /\ Nieft