>Lisa May >In fact, I would love recommendations for all other related lists that you are aware of. Have you heard of the sci-veg list? It's a list composed of mostly academics. Many professional nutritionist, a few well-known nutritional authors, and other scientists are on the sci-veg list. This group knows and practices the scientific method. It was started by a group frustrated with the discussion level of other lists (vegan-1, if I remember correctly) Although I delete a good percent of their posts, the ones I read are of high value. There is much up to date dietary information regarding osteoporosis, heart disease, essential fatty acids, etc. Nutritional deficiencies in vegan infants and reliability ofUSDA nutritional data are current threads. It is a moderated list. Well moderated, imo, and sticks to its subject. It tends to have only a few threads going at once, but does cover them well. It's cooked, not raw. From reading the sci-veg archives, most of their contact with the raw world seems to have been with fruitarian zealots (isn't that a fine how-de-do). You should be able to get sci-veg at http://www.waste.org/sci-veg Lisa, you also mentioned that on the other raw list that you were not getting much acknowledgment for your frequent posts, Belated thanks don't have the same effect as a timely reply, but let me say that I very much appreciate all your posts. You're heartfelt illingness( and fast response) in helping others "defined" the other list in my mind. I dislike being in the position of making excuses, but I never responded with a short post of appreciation to you, or others for that matter, because I was (am) somewhat new to the net, was in the process of going through the archives, and in the process of figuring out how to deal with the 50+e-mail messages I was getting a day ( I have since mastered the delete key). Plus I'm more of a lurker than a poster. So belated as it may be, thank you very much for all your work on the net. Also, Lisa, you mentioned a while back your concern about edema. As I recall the only response referred to edema being the result of poor kidney function and recommended a vista to a health care practitioner. Have you tried diuretic herbs, such as dandelion, to stimulate kidney function. As much as I was Shelton's work changed my life, I always ignored natural hygiene's condemnation of herbs and supplements. (Supplements may not be perfect but just think what a little b-12, zinc, or calcium supplements would do for the average fruitarian. Chet Day even reported that a young women, a beauty contest winner no less, died of osteoporosis - but wasn't the actual cause ideological rigidity/) One thing that struck me about edema was the seeming lack of specific information. When I do a search through my usual research materials, I am normally able toget a reasonably good idea of the basic biology behind a health problem, and then believe in attacking it at its root cause. I didn't get this regarding edema. Sure everybody says underperfoming kidneys and recommends herbs to support the kidneys. I was looking for the biochemical conditions which turn the kidneys on, or what would cause one set of kidneys to function properly and another set to work poorly. I didn't find that. In any case, I would suppose you are familiar with Prescriptions for Nutritional Healing by Dr. Balch and his nutritionist wife, Phyllis. Its prominently displayed in most heal food stores, and gives pretty good advice for most people in most situations, imo. For edema Dr. Balch, who is a urologist by trade, recommends such things as: Vit B6 50mg 3 times a day to reduce fluid retention Choline 50 mg daily Inositol 100 mg daily Vit C 2-4 grams/ day Calcium 1,5000mg/day (cal/mag in 2-1 ratio) Dr. Balch also says edema can be caused by allergies Have you done a med line search edema? The following is entirely speculative: I'm not claiming any of the following suggestions would be tremendously effective against edema. But if I had water retention I would consider the following minor lifestyle changes. Lisa, you mentioned you were into weight lifting. Don't you think jogging, aerobics, or hatha yoga would be a better choice? The jogging and aerobics induce sweat, of course. Hatha youga makes the claim of toning and strengthening the organ and glands. I have been doing hatha yoga for about 2 years and, although I can't offer any scientific proof, from my experience hatha does seem to benefit organ and gland functioning. And isn't our vitality and longevity more closely related to organ and gland health than muscularity? Not that I have a hate thing against lifting weights. During the winter months I normally lift weights 3 days a week. Also if you have a sauna available, consider using it 2 or 3 days a week (beware,excessive use of a sauna can dry out the skin). Anyway, thanks for all your posts. Best Regards Roy Siegel