Kirt, << But here you are proving Tom's point, aren't you? The "crabapples" are harder to eat than a red delicious apple, no? Conversely, it would be easier to overeat on the red delicious, no? Or am I missing something here? >> Kirt, I think his point was that MN directs us as to precisely when to eat a fruit, and thus spread its seed. And I may be wrong here, but I thought that crabapples were a different thing entirely than "regular" apples. I understood Rex to be talking about "regular" apples that were not yet ripe (this is what we used to call "green apples.") Rex - correct me if I'm wrong. Love Liza