You're forgetting that many of the people on this list came over from the lowcarb support list, and that they are doing Neanderthin, or thinking about doing Neanderthin, for weight loss. If that's what you're doing, Ray's own advice is to lay off the fruits and vegetables. So many folks are doing just that. Personally, I didn't follow that advice; I ate plenty of veggies, and some fruit all summer. Net result? After losing 40lbs from January to April on Atkins, I've lost nothing at all since on Neanderthin, and I've got 25-30lbs left to go. Take care, John Pavao ---------- I am of the opinion that there is too much focus on this discussion on the "hunter" aspect of the paleolithic diet, and almost no focus on the "gatherer" aspect. (In fact, I get the impression that most people on this list don'e eat veggies AT ALL.) After all, paleolithic folks had literally *hundreds* of variaties of plant based food available to them.