Mark Hovila) writes: << It may be semantics, but then again it may not. I just think it is important that we not deceive ourselves into thinking we are somehow performing some noble deed on the animal's behalf when we use words like "merciful" and "compassionate." If extraterrestrials visited our planet and began gathering up humans to kill and eat, >> bob: In my vwegan years, I found it difficult to justify killing and eating ANY life form, especially poor, innocent PLANTS, who NEVER kill nor eat animals, nor even other plants (by definition, what makes them a"plants" is their ability to draw their nutrition from inorganic sources (air, water, soil) while we animals, by definition, must hire a plant to convert our nutrients to an organic form, then show our gratitude by killing & eating the plant, often most unmercifully, eating them raw and live. It seemed more "just", if we must kill to survive, to kill ANIMALS, not plants, 'cause after all, all animals kill to live, so they ought to expect being killed so that others can live, yes? Ayn Rand called the altruist, egalitarian philosophies that are used to justify statist, socialist exploitation of the indidual "philosophy for ants". I usta think of veganism as "a philosophy for PLANTS", not only-anti-human, but anti-animal. The next step, which some of my good friends have taken, is "philosophy for rocks", like EarthSave, whose logical extensionis get ALL life forms off the earth so it can exist without being destroyed by organic stuff. Mebbe Tom's right; we 100% raw folk ARE mentally unbalanced, obviously! There are 2 other raw food lists: 1)"veg-raw": subscribe by sending and e-mail to [log in to unmask] with the following text in the body of the e-mail: subscribe veg-raw <your-email-address> The list is (lightly) moderated. Its basic goal is to promote discussions about raw/live vegetarian foods and natural hygiene. The volume is pretty low, so don't be surprised if you don't receive any e-mail for several days. 2) "raw" is unmoderated. Subscribe by sending e-mail to [log in to unmask] with the following text in the body of the e-mail: subscribe raw <your-email-address> The volume there is pretty high. There are a few excellent contributions, as well as a few crazies and a few "zealots". A vast majority of messages are from raw vegetarians, and it is very difficult to send posts about animal food without being criticized. Thus, that list may be more suited to vegetarians, but on the other hand, is somewhat polluted by zealotry. Best, Jean-Louis [log in to unmask] In a message dated 97-08-10 12:35:31 EDT, [log in to unmask] (Mark Hovila) writes: << It may be semantics, but then again it may not. I just think it is important that we not deceive ourselves into thinking we are somehow performing some noble deed on the animal's behalf when we use words like "merciful" and "compassionate." If extraterrestrials visited our planet and began gathering up humans to kill and eat, >> bob: In my vegan years, I found it difficult to justify killing and eating ANY life form, especially poor, innocent PLANTS, who NEVER kill nor eat animals, nor even other plants (by definition, what makes them a"plants" is their ability to draw their nutrition from inorganic sources (air, water, soil) while we animals, by definition, must hire a plant to convert our nutrients to an organic form, then show our gratitude by killing & eating the plant, often most unmercifully, eating them raw and live. It seemed more "just", if we must kill to survive, to kill ANIMALS, not plants, 'cause after all, all animals kill to live, so they ought to expect being killed so that others can live, yes? Ayn Rand called the altruist, egalitarian philosophies that are used to justify statist, socialist exploitation of the individual "philosophy for ants". I usta think of veganism as "a philosophy for PLANTS", not only-anti-human, but anti-animal. The next step, which some of my good friends have taken, is "philosophy for rocks", like EarthSave, whose logical extensionis get ALL life forms off the earth so it can exist without being destroyed by organic stuff. Mebbe Tom's right; we 100% raw folk ARE mentally unbalanced, obviously!n a message dated 97-08-10 15:53:36 EDT, [log in to unmask] writes: << lettuce can taste to good that I can easily eat a whole one or more. I conclude that RAF doesn't decrease my need for leafy veggies. Lettuce (I like romaine too) is the only vegetable I eat almost every = day, but it seems a bit "too easy". Our ancestors certainly ate more than one kind of leaves. So, I avoid eating ONLY lettuce as vegetables, but it's not easy. Typically, it takes 3-4 weeks for me to finish a cauliflower. >> Bob: Yup, me too. Romaine seems a great water source a while after eating dead animals. Cauliflower & broccoli, great favorites in huge quantities in '91 when I was steaming veggies, now are seldom appealing & usually only the stems of broccoli are delicious 'ealth, 'appiness, animality & long life to y'all, Bob.