Don Brayton, wrote: >To return to my >point; if a statement in the UDHR is meant to guarantee food, a job, >dignity and so on for everyone whether or not they have earned it, >uninspired humans will gather at the trough to feed and reproduce and >feed and reproduce and feed ... obtaining sustenance they have not >earned and thereby being degraded as self-reliant, responsible life >entities. Self-esteem must be earned ... self-esteem itself can not be >given or forced. Is your point that grinding poverty is ennobling? If so, the most psychologically healthy societies should be El Salvador, Peru, etc. Actually I can see an area where this principle might indeed be justly employed. Most wealth in this country is inherited, which means that the inheritor did NOTHING to earn it. Moveover, we can see the pernicious effects of letting heirs keep this wealth in the examples of the Royal Family, Donald Trump, the Johnson and Johnson family, etc. Why not levy an inheritance tax of 100% on this unearned wealth and ennoble these self-esteem-lacking individuals? Or is your argument that poverty ennobles *poor* people only? Self-esteem for thee, but not for me? Your argument assumes that US democracy is currently formal only, otherwise there would be no need to argue this hypothetical, since the current distribution of power and privilege would represent the democratic will of the people. With this assumption I agree. Your argument then seems to be that participatory democracy would be dangerous in that we would unleash massive irresponsibility, so it's preferable to have the purely plebiscitary one we have now, where decisions are made by "producers" (defined tautologically as anyone with disproportionate wealth), which the rest of us get to ratify. Is that your position? If not, what part am I missing? The argument that, given access to the national bank account, the masses would promptly bankrupt it, is not new. Karl Marx, FYI, said it well before Milton Friedman or Ayn Rand. The problem with that argument is that, during the 80s, the national bank account was clearly in the hands of the "producers", and THEY bankrupted it. Now we are applauding the gov't for reaching fiscal solvency--how? By finding 99% of the savings in programs benefiting the poor, while dishing out capital gains tax "relief" to the folks who created the deficit in the first place. As Bertolt Brecht said, Those who take bread from our mouths Preach self-restraint... Those who lead the country off the cliff Call ruling too difficult For ordinary men. y'r obdt. Svt., Tresy