>>> - <[log in to unmask]> 12/03/96 11:15am >>> >(snip)... Enlightement without sex is possible but a lot more difficult to >obtain. A spirituality based on the denial of our physical/emotional >needs can IMO not lead to enlightenment. Having said that true >spirituality probably has very little to do with the presence or >abscence of either. My understanding of this is that it's not really a question of self-denial, but rather that sexual energies can be rechanneled for other uses, most notably for the pursuit of enlightenment or mind-mastery or whatever ones goal is. This is the more Yogic interpretation of the matter. I really don't know what the philosophy behind Western monk/priest/nun celibacy-for-religious-reasons is. >(snip)... more of the likes of trophy hunters who kill for the sheer fun of >it to boost their frail male egos. Besides, not all animals are dying from >overpopulation (to say the least), ...(snip). True, except for a few cases, like feral goats on an island with no natural predators, most are dying from destruction of habitat. Still, it does happen. Starvation is one of nature's ways of maintaining balance. The hunters may have a point in these cases. What I don't get is the spirit behind wanting to hunt. I can understand killing because you need to for survival, but I can't understand liking it. Maybe it's a girl thang. >(snip)... if I indicated that optimum health is a prerequsite for spiritual >growth, shame on me. :-( What I probably was trying to say was that >to the extent there is a (perceived)connection between the two, the >more a diet is in conflict with our biological nature the less conducive it >will be for our spiritual growth & enlightenment. I do think I understand your points. But it comes down to two things, IMHO. 1) Let's say that meat is not a need, per se. It depends on what you expect to feel like. (I'm hypothesizing here - I haven't eaten meat in years and don't feel any different because of it [well, just many years older :-(]) Maybe the presence of it in your system makes you more alert, logical, aggressive, articulate. And maybe its absence makes you more worshipful, dreamy, contemplative. 2) Just how do you define spirituality. The Martha Seagoe definition still values compassion, despite all this discussion. I believe that we are not only mechanistic, physical beings. We have emotions, ideals, aspirations; qualities that are treated with some contempt by this group. >>And lest you think I'm a totally hopeless Calvinist, "The Gift" really >>cracked me up! >Yeah, me too! Me three. Cheers, Martha