Sandy, about MacDougall's 3-pieces-a-day limit. I think that might be going overboard too much in the other direction. Of course if one is eating MacDougall-style they would be loading up on lots of starches, so in that situation you would already be getting a high percentage of starches/carbs in the diet, thus you might well want to limit the fruit a bit more than otherwise. Actually, come to think of it, I suppose I may eat a bit more MacDougall-style these days than natural hygiene-style, in that I have cut back on the fruits from what I used to do. But I have to get some energy from somewhere, and without the fruits, the only way I have (so far) been able to do it is to make up for the lost fruit with a fair amount of starch stuff (grains, yams, etc.) or I just don't have any energy. My own fruit consumption now is maybe 2 apples in the a.m. most mornings plus half the days out of a week perhaps 2-3 oranges for lunch with other stuff, and then usually 2-3 handfuls of grapes mixed with yogurt befor bed. And maybe half the nights (after running workouts) I will wake up for a 4:00-5:00 a.m. snack of a half or whole banana. That's about the extent of my fruit consumption these days. One thing I find, though, is that for me trying to over-manipulate amounts of fruits, starches, proteins, fats, etc., is like playing that children's game where if you push a button down in one place, another one pops up somewhere else and you just can't fool the system. I've tried cutting WAY back on fruits, but then I go berserk for starchy carbs. If I cut the starchy carbs too much, then my craving for fruit goes back up. If I eat more dense, lower-water-content protein foods, then my craving for starches may go down but I feel the need for more juicy succulent fruits. Same for fats to some degree. On a related note, Melinda, my mate, has had good luck with the zone-style diet energy-wise, and while the research is still controversial, Peter Brandt's relaying of xeroxes and other research on diets like this higher in fat/protein with lower carbs (which actually more closely resembles our ancient Paleolithic diet than the natural hygiene diet) have got me to the point I may be experimenting with a higher level of fat and protein to see how that affects my energy levels. In which case I may be eating a bit more fruit now, but a whole lot less starchy carbs. We'll see what happens. --Ward Nicholson <[log in to unmask]> Wichita, KS