On Feb 12, 2024, at 10:38 AM, Dan Bloom <[log in to unmask]> wrote:Phil:______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.It is us versus them.“We” won the election and all the court cases verify this. “They” won’t accept it. For example.Does anyone have a doubt about what will happen in the event he loses the next election? He is already laying the foundation for another attack on democracy. Just listen to him. The new chair of the Republican Party is an infamous election denier.DanOn Feb 12, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:Great. Peter, the new John Wayne. See, Leanne, what I meant about civil war? See the us against them and the privileging of the us? And the demonizing of them? In fact, it’s a kind of religious self-righteousness that justifies throwing discourse to the wind and fighting. Marvelous.______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.On Feb 12, 2024, at 10:20 AM, Peter Philippson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:Thank you Charlie.I am not so sure about reason unfortunately. Look at our process here. Reason becomes an equalising process where the most crazy things are said as 'reasonable' arguments - Phil is great at that. At some point, people must say 'No! No argument, no reasoning like adults, just no! You threaten me and the nation, and I don't need any reasonable argument to replace fighting you.'Sometimes the fight just needs to happen if that is in the wings, because reason won't cut it. Paradoxically, because the MAGA people are such cowards, the threat to actually fight has usually led to backing down. That is one of the truths of January 6th: the insurgents had enough people and firepower to kill the people they were threatening to kill, and all the police, but they backed down in the face of police fighting back, then claiming that they were just day-trippers. When I've intervened when street bullies were threatening people, they have always backed down when they saw that I was ready for real violence.Best wishes,Peter______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.Dan, when you said "echo chamber" it reminded me of a portion of Al Gore's speech at the Davos economic summit:"These algorithms that suck people down proverbial rabbit holes, they're more like the pitcher plants with slippery sides and at the bottom of the rabbit hole, that's where the echo chamber is. And people who dwell long enough in the echo chamber become vulnerable to a new kind of AI. Not artificial intelligence, but artificial insanity."The comparison of Joe Biden to Donald Trump is ridiculous and only perpetuated by algorithmic news delivery. Biden, while a politician, is not a criminal. He's been convicted of nothing and the last time I checked, that was a requirement of democracy, not the result of spending time at the bottom of the rabbit hole.Trump is a convicted criminal. The litmus test for me has always been, "would I want my children to follow in the footsteps of my leaders." Barack and Michelle Obama have come the closest to that standard.I hold no quarter for MAGA Republicans, and believe the last hope we have left is a political appeal to reason. Reform must come now; reforms in both how we pollute our environment and how we receive information. We must change in the direction of healing our planet, regardless of the nature of the fight we must undertake.Charlie"For green grass and clean rivers, children with bright eyes and good color, and people safe from being pushed around – for a few things like these, I find I am pretty ready to think away most other political, economic, and technological advantages." - Paul Goodman, 1970Sure. MAGA people don’t wear red hats or walk in lock-step with their creator. That’s a media creation of the left. Congress is not in a deadlock on immigration and foreign aid because MAGA’s leader issued a command. My mistake. I guess I ought to stop reading stuff printed by my echo chamber. LOL.
Values? I refer to the Enlightenment values of reason and discourse. I refer to republicanism and democracy. I refer to acceptance of the plurality of differences. I refer to what Martin Luther King referred to as the arc of justice.
What is going on now is a tragedy — because it is destroying those values. The values we hold in common.
I ‘ve read plenty of SCOTUS opinions written by conservatives and appreciated them because of they made good law even though their conclusions clashed with my sense of how things out to be. I and those justices who wrote those decisions shared common values.
It is different now. Now reminds me of pre-Civil War America.
The church? The world can’t understand it? It is a political behemoth wearing a coat of many colors. it is not A church, but the name of political power in the name of god. The church used such political power for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. May I suggest the 30 Years War? The Counter Reformation? May I suggest the battle between the church and the princes in the late Middle Ages? And the conquest of Christian Europe by Islam? These examples are just off the top of my head.
What’s to understand? :)
Dan
> On Feb 11, 2024, at 2:38 PM, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> In reference to what you said below, “the twisting of ‘our’ values,” whose values? Values are entwined in politics. Also in spirituality. Also in morality. But there is no one size fits all supporter of Trump. There is no MAGA monolith; that is a creation of the left and a straw man talking point. There are people who share some values and differ on others who may also support Trump. Personally, I lament church leaders as it were making a Dorian Gray type bargain in the hope of getting some political goal, because the church will never get what it wants from the world. The world cannot understand the church. And when I say “church,” I’m not talking about the Constantinan hybrid that many people think is the church.
>
> The current electoral season is a cluster fuck that would have made for a comedic farce only ten years ago. Now it is a tragedy.
>
> Phil
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 11, 2024, at 7:10 AM, Dan Bloom <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> To the extent the churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples stand by and watch the twisting of our values by MAGA, they are complicit. Since religions are supposed to be the source of morality, they have a greater duty to take moral stands than other institutions. The only consistent moral stand I see then taking in all this is against the right to choose. Fortunately, some religions push back against the right to life people.
>
> ______________
> Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
______________
Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
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______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.