Py- I think you are talking Martin Weaver. He has left us. M -----Original Message----- From: michael <[log in to unmask]> To: BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Sun, May 11, 2014 10:38 pm Subject: [BP] Gustavino Im having a 60's moment but there was a prof at Columbia (at Avery Hall) who was an expert on Gustavino worked with Weiss and Frank Matero ; and was briefly with Erencrantz they used to fly out to conferences and job sites but that was 35 years ago so no luck there .Having spent many memorable happy hours in study of the famous vaulted Astor Bar ( our scaffold was just outside.); and downed some Nobel Bivalves under the fame groined vaulting of New Yorks Grand Central oyster bar (whilst our scaffold hung off the Pan Am which towers over it I want to say the 19th cent tiles were laid in a very sticky dolomitic hydraulic lime with very fine sand or an aggregate of finely crushed slag ; but its all a guess . I think Columbia (avery /Weiss ) did some mortar tests in the 80's for a conference around the same period We had Gustavino tile at the Cathedral St John and Cleaned the ones at Nebraska state capital using micro particle ; and I still enjoy reading his (Gustavinos ) book as he walks us through the history of terra cotta tile and its use with volcanic cement . So maybe it was natural cement after all ; (makes sense ) in that case Mike edison or John walsh would know All very interesting as im leaving to look at a historic turn of the century glazed terra cotta hotel in Mobile thats come 'Unglued " (setting beds washed out and anchors rusted ); not Gustavino ; but inspired by him Im sure. Each floor was poured concrete with a detail that nosed out into the terra cotta buttress to pick up the weight for the terra cotta at each individual floor . Im with Eileen and Derrick ; the worst case scenario is heavy efflorescence due to water and freeze thaw ; mo later Py -----Original Message----- From: BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]> To: BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Sun, May 11, 2014 3:39 pm Subject: BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS Digest - 24 Mar 2014 to 11 May 2014 - Special issue (#2014-23) There are 8 messages totaling 19065 lines in this issue. Topics in this special issue: 1. guastavino (8) -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 11:23:30 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: guastavino The glazed "decorative" tiles in a typical G ceiling are applied with mortar or similar, correct? Doesn't that ever fail? I have never seen G tiles falling off a G ceiling. c -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 16:02:48 +0000 From: Derek Trelstad <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: guastavino Hmmm. Sort of. You have a specific vault in mind? Or, are you curious about the iconic herring-bone pattern of tiles? On May 11, 2014, at 11:24, "[log in to unmask]<"?"mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: The glazed "decorative" tiles in a typical G ceiling are applied with mortar or similar, correct? Doesn't that ever fail? I have never seen G tiles falling off a G ceiling. c -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 12:06:58 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: guastavino In a message dated 5/11/2014 12:02:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: Hmmm. Sort of. You have a specific vault in mind? Or, are you curious about the iconic herring-bone pattern of tiles? I have no vault in mind. I just wonder why I have never seen an example of that kind of failure on the typical Guastavino, thin-shell tile peeling away from the underside of the vault. It's not like the tiles are wedged in place, like voussoirs, I don't think. They are just glued in place, and they've been fighting gravity for a century. Christopher -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 12:10:59 -0400 From: Ilene Tyler <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: guastavino Water infiltration may weaken the bond or cause a failure due to freeze-thaw, especially if the guastivino was used for a porch or other outdoor space. Thinking of The Mother Church in Boston, where I observed this condition. Ilene R. Tyler, FAIA, FAPT, LEED AP Principal and Director of Preservation o 734-663-5888 m 734-417-3730 > On May 11, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Derek Trelstad <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 12:29:26 -0400 From: Mike Edison <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: guastavino So how long until we get to the nature of the "glue"? Michael P. Edison Edison Coatings, Inc. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID [log in to unmask] wrote: > > > > >In a message dated 5/11/2014 12:02:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: > >Hmmm. Sort of. You have a specific vault in mind? Or, are you curious about the iconic herring-bone pattern of tiles? > >I have no vault in mind. I just wonder why I have never seen an example of that kind of failure on the typical Guastavino, thin-shell tile peeling away from the underside of the vault. It's not like the tiles are wedged in place, like voussoirs, I don't think. They are just glued in place, and they've been fighting gravity for a century. > > > >Christopher > > >-- >**Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** > >To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 18:24:03 +0000 From: Derek Trelstad <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: guastavino In to the deep end... In many, if not most, instances, the visible tile on the lower surface of vaults (what I recall RGCo calling "soffit tile" on their drawings) are built integrally with the subsequent layers of tile. So, in a way, they are "wedged" in place like voussoirs. There are exceptions. Tile below the gross domical form in RGCo's vaults -- think of the vaults in the Oyster Bar in Grand Central, as one example -- were applied to the "structural" tile in the manner you describe. It is likely, though I have no documentation to support this statement, that the elaborately decorated surfaces of vaults (the Nebraska State Capitol comes to mind) were also applied to the surface of the structural tile above. In his recent book on RGCo's works, John Ochsendorf states that the soffit tile are applied to the finished structural vault. John and I have had several good discussions about this issue and I suspect that if you were to ask either of us (and I don't pretend to be as expert on RGCo's work or Catalan vaulting as John) how these tile were applied we'd probably both hedge a bit and say "It depends..." -- in much the same manner as I did in the paragraph above. I don't think there have been cases of the soffit tile peeling away as the result of an adhesive failure. Though there may be; I just don't know of them. Dr John, though, may know of one. Happy to put you in touch. There have been documented failures of Catalan vaults -- most notably a modest size dome in Barcelona. A paper on this failure was presented in November 2012 at a symposium on RGCo / Catalan vaulting at MIT. That paper may be posted on line. I'll find the link and post it. I've also found a dome, just outside Philly, that is no longer intact -- though I do not have details on whether the dome failed or was removed. Though I suspect the former. Happy to provide more details -- here or back-channel. The failure that Ilene describes is somewhat common in vaults that are exposed to the weather, though in my experience the damage is clearly from frost-thaw cycling and not delamination at the interface between the soffit tile and the structural vault above. I've seen the vaults at the Mother Church, but don't know the mode of failure. Frost-thaw was the proximate cause of deterioration at the small vaults in the entry to the parish house at Church of the Holy Trinity (East 88th Street in New York) and Plymouth Rock Portico. Jack Glassman presented a paper on the PRP at the same symposium at MIT at which the paper on the collapse in Barcelona was presented. From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask] Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 12:07 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [BP] guastavino In a message dated 5/11/2014 12:02:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: Hmmm. Sort of. You have a specific vault in mind? Or, are you curious about the iconic herring-bone pattern of tiles? I have no vault in mind. I just wonder why I have never seen an example of that kind of failure on the typical Guastavino, thin-shell tile peeling away from the underside of the vault. It's not like the tiles are wedged in place, like voussoirs, I don't think. They are just glued in place, and they've been fighting gravity for a century. Christopher -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:48:28 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: guastavino In a message dated 5/11/2014 2:24:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: In many, if not most, instances, the visible tile on the lower surface of vaults (what I recall RGCo calling “soffit tile” on their drawings) are built integrally with the subsequent layers of tile. So, in a way, they are “ wedged” in place like voussoirs. There are exceptions. Tile below the gross domical form in RGCo’s vaults -- think of the vaults in the Oyster Bar in Grand Central, as one example -- were applied to the “structural” tile in the manner you describe. It is likely, though I have no documentation to support this statement, that the elaborately decorated surfaces of vaults (the Nebraska State Capitol comes to mind) were also applied to the surface of the structural tile above. Derek, as always, thank you. I posted this query after seeing the Guastavino show at MCNY. There they have a demonstration dome, perhaps 4' square, which indicated to me that the bottom tiles were held in place only by some adhesive. Having just seen a sofa-sized piece of cast stone fall from the Zeckendorf apartment house (c. 1985) at 86th and Lexington (apparently an attachment failure - no one injured) it occurred to me that I have never heard of such a failure with Guastavino tiles. And there are so many of them. So ... what is that glue? Christopher (PS If you're interested in G as an architect, you gotta see these photos: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/realestate/off-with-the-face-paint.html ) -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 20:39:13 +0000 From: Derek Trelstad <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: guastavino Ah, that vault! In the vault built at the exhibit currently at MCNY the soffit tiles are stuck on to the structural vault, except at the arches at the four sides of the vault. At the arches the glazed tile were built integrally with the red-clay tile above. Not sure how BP likes attachments. The photo attached shows the vault under construction. And, my daughter. Watch the stop-motion “video” on the MCNY Website (which is featured in the exhibit) and you can see my kid with a trowel, placing mortar and tile on the vault and may catch, in the nano-second it is on screen, this same shot! Some kids have all the fun, while their parents run out of excuses for pulling ‘em out of school a little early. From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask] Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 02:48 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [BP] guastavino In a message dated 5/11/2014 2:24:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: In many, if not most, instances, the visible tile on the lower surface of vaults (what I recall RGCo calling “soffit tile” on their drawings) are built integrally with the subsequent layers of tile. So, in a way, they are “wedged” in place like voussoirs. There are exceptions. Tile below the gross domical form in RGCo’s vaults -- think of the vaults in the Oyster Bar in Grand Central, as one example -- were applied to the “structural” tile in the manner you describe. It is likely, though I have no documentation to support this statement, that the elaborately decorated surfaces of vaults (the Nebraska State Capitol comes to mind) were also applied to the surface of the structural tile above. Derek, as always, thank you. I posted this query after seeing the Guastavino show at MCNY. There they have a demonstration dome, perhaps 4' square, which indicated to me that the bottom tiles were held in place only by some adhesive. Having just seen a sofa-sized piece of cast stone fall from the Zeckendorf apartment house (c. 1985) at 86th and Lexington (apparently an attachment failure - no one injured) it occurred to me that I have never heard of such a failure with Guastavino tiles. And there are so many of them. So ... what is that glue? Christopher (PS If you're interested in G as an architect, you gotta see these photos: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/realestate/off-with-the-face-paint.html ) -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <http://listserv.icors.org/archi ------------------------------ End of BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS Digest - 24 Mar 2014 to 11 May 2014 - Special issue (#2014-23) ***************************************************************************************** -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and theuncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html -- **Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service** To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>