Subject: BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS Digest - 24 Mar 2014 to 11 May 2014 - Special issue (#2014-23)
There are 8 messages totaling 19065 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. guastavino (8)
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Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 11:23:30 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: guastavino
The glazed "decorative" tiles in a typical G ceiling are applied with
mortar or similar, correct? Doesn't that ever fail? I have never seen G
tiles falling off a G ceiling.
c
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Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 16:02:48 +0000
From: Derek Trelstad <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: guastavino
Hmmm. Sort of. You have a specific vault in mind? Or, are you curious about the
iconic herring-bone pattern of tiles?
On May 11, 2014, at 11:24, "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
wrote:
The glazed "decorative" tiles in a typical G ceiling are applied with mortar or
similar, correct? Doesn't that ever fail? I have never seen G tiles falling
off a G ceiling.
c
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Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 12:06:58 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: guastavino
In a message dated 5/11/2014 12:02:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Hmmm. Sort of. You have a specific vault in mind? Or, are you curious
about the iconic herring-bone pattern of tiles?
I have no vault in mind. I just wonder why I have never seen an example
of that kind of failure on the typical Guastavino, thin-shell tile peeling
away from the underside of the vault. It's not like the tiles are wedged
in place, like voussoirs, I don't think. They are just glued in place, and
they've been fighting gravity for a century.
Christopher
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Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 12:10:59 -0400
From: Ilene Tyler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: guastavino
Water infiltration may weaken the bond or cause a failure due to freeze-thaw,
especially if the guastivino was used for a porch or other outdoor space.
Thinking of The Mother Church in Boston, where I observed this condition.
Ilene R. Tyler, FAIA, FAPT, LEED AP
Principal and Director of Preservation
o 734-663-5888
m 734-417-3730
> On May 11, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Derek Trelstad <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
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Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 12:29:26 -0400
From: Mike Edison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: guastavino
So how long until we get to the nature of the "glue"?
Michael P. Edison
Edison Coatings, Inc.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
[log in to unmask] wrote:
>
>
>
>
>In a message dated 5/11/2014 12:02:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
>
>Hmmm. Sort of. You have a specific vault in mind? Or, are you curious about the
iconic herring-bone pattern of tiles?
>
>I have no vault in mind. I just wonder why I have never seen an example of
that kind of failure on the typical Guastavino, thin-shell tile peeling away
from the underside of the vault. It's not like the tiles are wedged in place,
like voussoirs, I don't think. They are just glued in place, and they've been
fighting gravity for a century.
>
>
>
>Christopher
>
>
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>**Please remember to trim posts, as requested in the Terms of Service**
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Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 18:24:03 +0000
From: Derek Trelstad <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: guastavino
In to the deep end...
In many, if not most, instances, the visible tile on the lower surface of vaults
(what I recall RGCo calling "soffit tile" on their drawings) are built
integrally with the subsequent layers of tile. So, in a way, they are "wedged"
in place like voussoirs. There are exceptions. Tile below the gross domical form
in RGCo's vaults -- think of the vaults in the Oyster Bar in Grand Central, as
one example -- were applied to the "structural" tile in the manner you describe.
It is likely, though I have no documentation to support this statement, that the
elaborately decorated surfaces of vaults (the Nebraska State Capitol comes to
mind) were also applied to the surface of the structural tile above.
In his recent book on RGCo's works, John Ochsendorf states that the soffit tile
are applied to the finished structural vault. John and I have had several good
discussions about this issue and I suspect that if you were to ask either of us
(and I don't pretend to be as expert on RGCo's work or Catalan vaulting as John)
how these tile were applied we'd probably both hedge a bit and say "It
depends..." -- in much the same manner as I did in the paragraph above.
I don't think there have been cases of the soffit tile peeling away as the
result of an adhesive failure. Though there may be; I just don't know of them.
Dr John, though, may know of one. Happy to put you in touch. There have been
documented failures of Catalan vaults -- most notably a modest size dome in
Barcelona. A paper on this failure was presented in November 2012 at a symposium
on RGCo / Catalan vaulting at MIT. That paper may be posted on line. I'll find
the link and post it. I've also found a dome, just outside Philly, that is no
longer intact -- though I do not have details on whether the dome failed or was
removed. Though I suspect the former. Happy to provide more details -- here or
back-channel.
The failure that Ilene describes is somewhat common in vaults that are exposed
to the weather, though in my experience the damage is clearly from frost-thaw
cycling and not delamination at the interface between the soffit tile and the
structural vault above. I've seen the vaults at the Mother Church, but don't
know the mode of failure. Frost-thaw was the proximate cause of deterioration at
the small vaults in the entry to the parish house at Church of the Holy Trinity
(East 88th Street in New York) and Plymouth Rock Portico. Jack Glassman
presented a paper on the PRP at the same symposium at MIT at which the paper on
the collapse in Barcelona was presented.
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 12:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] guastavino
In a message dated 5/11/2014 12:02:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Hmmm. Sort of. You have a specific vault in mind? Or, are you curious about the
iconic herring-bone pattern of tiles?
I have no vault in mind. I just wonder why I have never seen an example of
that kind of failure on the typical Guastavino, thin-shell tile peeling away
from the underside of the vault. It's not like the tiles are wedged in place,
like voussoirs, I don't think. They are just glued in place, and they've been
fighting gravity for a century.
Christopher
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:48:28 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: guastavino
In a message dated 5/11/2014 2:24:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
In many, if not most, instances, the visible tile on the lower surface of
vaults (what I recall RGCo calling “soffit tile” on their drawings) are
built integrally with the subsequent layers of tile. So, in a way, they are “
wedged” in place like voussoirs. There are exceptions. Tile below the gross
domical form in RGCo’s vaults -- think of the vaults in the Oyster Bar in
Grand Central, as one example -- were applied to the “structural” tile in
the manner you describe. It is likely, though I have no documentation to
support this statement, that the elaborately decorated surfaces of vaults
(the Nebraska State Capitol comes to mind) were also applied to the surface of
the structural tile above.
Derek, as always, thank you. I posted this query after seeing the
Guastavino show at MCNY. There they have a demonstration dome, perhaps 4'
square,
which indicated to me that the bottom tiles were held in place only by
some adhesive. Having just seen a sofa-sized piece of cast stone fall from
the Zeckendorf apartment house (c. 1985) at 86th and Lexington (apparently an
attachment failure - no one injured) it occurred to me that I have never
heard of such a failure with Guastavino tiles. And there are so many of
them.
So ... what is that glue?
Christopher
(PS If you're interested in G as an architect, you gotta see these photos:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/realestate/off-with-the-face-paint.html )
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Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 20:39:13 +0000
From: Derek Trelstad <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: guastavino
Ah, that vault! In the vault built at the exhibit currently at MCNY the soffit
tiles are stuck on to the structural vault, except at the arches at the four
sides of the vault. At the arches the glazed tile were built integrally with the
red-clay tile above.
Not sure how BP likes attachments. The photo attached shows the vault under
construction. And, my daughter. Watch the stop-motion “video” on the MCNY
Website (which is featured in the exhibit) and you can see my kid with a trowel,
placing mortar and tile on the vault and may catch, in the nano-second it is on
screen, this same shot! Some kids have all the fun, while their parents run out
of excuses for pulling ‘em out of school a little early.
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 02:48 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] guastavino
In a message dated 5/11/2014 2:24:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
In many, if not most, instances, the visible tile on the lower surface of vaults
(what I recall RGCo calling “soffit tile” on their drawings) are built
integrally with the subsequent layers of tile. So, in a way, they are “wedged”
in place like voussoirs. There are exceptions. Tile below the gross domical form
in RGCo’s vaults -- think of the vaults in the Oyster Bar in Grand Central, as
one example -- were applied to the “structural” tile in the manner you describe.
It is likely, though I have no documentation to support this statement, that the
elaborately decorated surfaces of vaults (the Nebraska State Capitol comes to
mind) were also applied to the surface of the structural tile above.
Derek, as always, thank you. I posted this query after seeing the Guastavino
show at MCNY. There they have a demonstration dome, perhaps 4' square, which
indicated to me that the bottom tiles were held in place only by some adhesive.
Having just seen a sofa-sized piece of cast stone fall from the Zeckendorf
apartment house (c. 1985) at 86th and Lexington (apparently an attachment
failure - no one injured) it occurred to me that I have never heard of such a
failure with Guastavino tiles. And there are so many of them.
So ... what is that glue?
Christopher
(PS If you're interested in G as an architect, you gotta see these photos:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/realestate/off-with-the-face-paint.html )
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End of BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS Digest - 24 Mar 2014 to 11 May 2014 - Special issue
(#2014-23)
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