Haruna

All your points are good yet not addressing my specific point.

The Democratic Party change rules midstream is no difference than Yahya and/or any other dictator changing rules.Constitution/laws/standing orders etc. Obama and the Democratic Party give reasons….so too Yahya or those dictators give reasons for their decisions. This is no good practice regardless to country/continent.

I can’t reason how we think Obama’s is justified but Yahya’s not! In both cases is corrupting democracy.

Burama

  

On Dec 4, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Haruna <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

In democratic governance, there are several branches of governance, working in concert amid branch cordons, oft confluent. Ergo the need for coalitions here and there.

Constitutions guide the concert of governance, NOT branch administrative RULES.

There is NO other branch of governance in Gambia save for the executive.

In the US, the executive branch is responsible for governance.

The congress is responsible for legislation and advise & consent on the executive's governance.

In America, the judiciary interpretes law and provides a check on the legislature and the executive.

In gambia, Yahya makes, interpretes, and implements law, provides a check on the executive, legislature, and judiciary.

In Gambia Yahya cannot be prosecuted for his crimes.

In America, the executive, legislature, and judiciary will, and they know they will, be prosecuted for any crimes they commit.

Happy holidays Burama.

Haruna.

-----Original Message-----
From: Burama Jammeh <[log in to unmask]>
To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wed, Dec 4, 2013 9:28 am
Subject: Re: Democracy or Dictatorship

Again my point is not answered. 

There is no difference Yahya changing the constitution with his parliamentary majority to Democratic changing rules of Senate with their majority. The end result produced what one wants rather than battling it through the rigor of democratic processes. 

On the question of election verdict in America. This is exactly my point. Those Republican were equally elected by those who elected Obama but for a different role. Hence they’re no obstructionists and voters will have another crack to vote them out if they disapprove their performance. That’s the system and every American president faces it in some form. My point - is undemocratic to begin to change rule midstream especially those you vehemently argued against just few years ago.

To end, what happen in American politics doesn’t trouble me much; but only as it relates to the global survival of democracy. I only highlight these issues to make a connection to Gambia and African politics by extension. That is if a mature democracy like America will resort to such power grabbing tactics because of difficult/hostile opposition……what should we expect of a guy like Yahya who promised to bury them 6ft below the surface of earth.

I understand some people’s public/private allegiance to the Democratic Party/Obama> I also understand the preference of many on the political positions of that party on many issues that of of direct interest to us...….yet what is wrong is always wrong no matter who/what.

Take a look at the videos of Obama/Biden/Hillary/Pelosi, etc in their own words then and now. Equally take a look at Yahya’s words on unchecked power, term limit and we will not allowed dictatorship in Gambia - then/now. It makes you think that everyone is smitten with power whenever/wherever possible. The differences lie on the degree at which democratic institutions function as should.

There is no difference if Obama as head of the ruling party corrupt democratic checks/balances to when Yahya those one. Let me make it clear….am not comparing the 2 by any means. My point is limited to the current executive/congress relationship and the recent changing of some rules.

Appreciate your views though!

Burama

 

On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:07 PM, Haruna <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Thanks Demba, I think you explain my views a bit clearer than I did. I think Burama's comparison of what obtains in America to what obtains in Gambia is a bit off quilter. Rules of the Senate and or the House are simply that - administrative guidelines for debate and pannafore. It is interesting to note that in the House where the "minority" holds sway, no majority topics are debated much less voted on. And of the "minority" bills that are deliberated on and passed, none of them is of any constitutional consequence. E.g. - What to name a House building, state community cul-de-sac, or how to rename a bill passed a century ago, or get this: how to plan to repeal National Healthcare Law!!!!!! 

Best wishes for the holidays to both of you. Gentlemen all.

Haruna.

-----Original Message-----
From: Demba Baldeh <[log in to unmask]>
To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: Democracy or Dictatorship

Thanks Haruna. I can't agree with you more on your majority/minority cooperation to work together. One good turn deserves another... If you are in majority office today you are certain to be in the minority down the road. So it makes perfect sense and fulfill the principles of democracy to allow a majority to legislate with the cooperation of the minority. Democracy is defeated when Minority seek to block anything and I mean anything the majority wants to do. It is ironical that they try to impose their will on the people while discarding the will of the majority.

As for Burama's position, I am in agreement with you. Just because no one has yet to come up with a solution to remove Yahya in power does not negate the efforts being made. Every Gambian is being challenged to come up with ideas and or solutions to change the system. Since Yahya is not capable of changing and will not compromise on anything other than his way, we have limited options but to force change. I know that we can't wait for another 20 years while we try to build democratic movements in the Diaspora. It is simply putting the cart before the horse.

I encourage the conversation though and hope we can find a solution sooner rather than later.

Thanks

Demba

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:29 AM, Haruna <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Demba and Burama,

While I am sympathetic to your two views: Majority Rule and Consensus Rule

It appears the two views are at loggerheads as is to be expected. Without commenting on what Democracy is at this time (my book, coming soon, DEMOCRATICA - A Lifestyle Synthesis shares a definition for democracy), the two views of Majority Rule and Consensus Rule provide a recipe for for impasse, acrimony, and obstructionism particularly among African polity.

For effective and efficient governance, there is a happy medium luckily. This happy medium is so because in elections, we cannot readily discern the motivations or desires of our fellows for governance. (I shy away from the word rule because it connotes tyranny). So after the "Majority" wins an election, they will still need a sizable majority of the minority for any meaningful and effective governance. It will therefore be imperative to not only include members from the minority in governance cabinets, it is crucial to constantly reach out to the minority for their participation in policy conferences and development. What I am sharing is the value of coalition-making around issues rather than belonging to particular political parties that vied in the election. It is to be expected that the victorious party will form the majority of office-holders but great effort must be made to include members of minority parties who share similar visions for the nation or community. When this is done, governance by coalitions around pertinent issues for the people becomes effortless.

Furthermore, and after elections, the people must always be encouraged to participate in their own governance. Decentralized policy meetings, debates, conferences, workshops, etc., will go a long way to achieving that goal.

I must share here that Burama's idea of having a prospective governance mechanism or government in place before we remove Yahya is both unproductive ad ill-advised. It will lead to political encampment and an air of elitism that will only invite counter-coups. That was what plagued for a long time, and continues to plague Nigeria and Liberia. One person's objections must never be allowed to scupper national governance either.

Thank you both for your indulgence.

Haruna.

-----Original Message-----

From: dbaldeh <[log in to unmask]>
To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 4:32 am
Subject: Re: Democracy or Dictatorship

Interesting Burama. So in your case here election of a president is meaningless. They cannot govern because the minority party does not like him or his policies.  

I tell you what is an obstruction. It is when an  idea can be passed into law by the  majority and one person block it. It is when your party come up with an idea, it is accepted by the opposing party and you now oppose it because you don't like the president. It is opposing things you supported when your party was in power and now you oppose.  

Democracy is about majority rule right.  Then let the winner of the elections govern.

Thanks

Demba

From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

-------- Original message --------
From: Burama FL Jammeh <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 12/02/2013 3:27 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [G_L] Democracy or Dictatorship


Active National Assembly/'Obstructionists' National Assembly vs Rubber Stamping National Assembly!

The excuse and political low blow in America today. When a politician did not get his/her way, s/he blamed the other as obstructionist....as if that person is not elected representative of the people

No wonder African leaders such as Yahya Jammeh, override our representatives and/or ask them to stamp his will at will, where there exist no functioning institutions of democracy.

Where America's political class is everyday looking for ways to by-pass democratic checks.....one should be very suspicious of anybody in or vying for power.

It appear when people assume power they ran out of sanity before their back hit the backrest of the chair.

As Senator Obama argued vehemently Republican treat to do-away with 225 year Senate Super Majority Rule (60 votes) used for many confirmations and legislature. Two weeks ago his party did just that for judicial confirmations (excluding supreme court) with his endorsement........they claimed because Republican legislature are obstructionists.

Amazing to see Obama, Baden, Hilary, Pelosi and Reid on video in 2006/7 arguing against what they supported toady. Uncheck power mixed with human nature is toxic

I have no reason to root for either party......but this time the party in power has thrown a fundamental (voice of the minority) of democracy under the bus.

Some of these actions of man made me reason we should not put our struggle on the back of any one person.....The end result of such effort will produce another tyranny.

The answer is the majority of our people has to have a requisite capacity to live a life of democracy. Some of these changes are possible in today's America because such human capacity is low mainly through complacency of citizens.

My thoughts!

Burama

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface
at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html

To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l
To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to:
[log in to unmask]
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html

To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html

To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

--
"Be the change you want to see in the World"

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html

To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html

To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html

To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html

To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html

To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤