There are 31 messages totalling 3703 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Mortar (9)
2. To the congress of adepts (3)
3. tile and terrazzo floors (2)
4. Fenestrationally challenged
5. Any more BP kid stories?
6. Fenestra (9)
7. windows
8. What about Mr. Bluster? (2)
9. thoughts about conferences (2)
10. Think happy thoughts
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:03:20 -0400
From: Leland Torrence <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Mortar
Mike,
Is it true that ASTM E-96 allows for a 76% acceptable variance for testing
moisture vapor transmission?
Best,
Leland
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:04:16 -0400
From: Edison Coatings <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mortar
That's not exactly the language of the precision statement, but essentially,
yes, it says that a 76% interlaboratory difference is the point at which it
would be considered excessive.
Edison Coatings, Inc.
Michael P. Edison
President
3 Northwest Drive
Plainville, CT 06062
Phone: (860) 747-2220 or (800)341-6621
Fax: (860)747-2280
Internet: www.edisoncoatings.com
www.rosendalecement.net
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
---------- Original Message -----------
From: Leland Torrence <[log in to unmask]< /A>>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:03:20 -0400
Subject: [BP] Mortar
> Mike,
> Is it true that ASTM E-96 allows for a 76% acceptable variance for testing
> moisture vapor transmission?
> Best,
> Leland
>
> --
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:22:52 -0400
From: Rudy R Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: To the congress of adepts
Mary,
In order of your questions....not my knowledge.
I'm a big fan of inside storms. They don't disturb the look of the building.
Older buildings have texture provided in part by the depth of the sash. New
buildings are flat with shiny spots. Inside storms are also easier to
install and remove.
I like radiant heat, but it's tough to retrofit without some intrusion. When
it's possible to=2
0install as a subfloor, Warmboard is a pretty magical
product. It works extremely well with wood floors and is very easy to
install PEX tubing in.
I've never worked on a spring board floor but I have seen one in a building
which is unfortunately gone now. It was an inn with a spring board floor
dance hall upstairs. From what I understand they were popular in the late
19th century. Other than that, don't know a thing about them.
Rudy
-----Original Message-----
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mary Tegel
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 1:18 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [BP] To the congress of adepts
Maybe this could be the beginning of an ode-- to x and etc. But it's
not.
It's a few questions with the last one
being the most interesting.
Background: I was talking with a member of the Machias, Maine Grange
who's also a member of the Beehive Collective. I have to given them a
lot of credit for bringing
back into service a moribund building and doing it right and in a
manner that has been respectful of the community.
Anyway, she said they were thinking about weatherizing the windows. I
hope she is now a member of the religion that keeps the old and thinks
about a good way to make storm window
s. That's the first question.
The second has to do with her idea to install radiant heat in the
floors ( it's a bear to heat in downeast winters-- they usually close
it for the coldest months). I gave her the lowdown as
much as I could re: the maintenance
requirements for a hit water system in that climate and the need for
more thermal mass than the wood material provides.
The third and most interesting question has to do with the spring
floor. It's not quite floating. It's somehow loosenable/tightenable
via a couple of sets of turnbuckles. I recommended she not crank on
them at all until they find someone who really knows about such
things. I suggested there might be an oldtimer around there and that
I'd fly this by you folks.
I suppose the answers to rise questions are multi-faceted (and
probably have nothing to do with ducks --- oh. How about "duckworks"
for that glossary?
I am hoping to get some wisdom from you that I can pass on to the
Grangers. Maybe there's work there for anybody bullamanka-pinheaded on
any of these questions. They don't have much money (of course, that's
what they all say). Anyway -- if interested, I can put you in touch
with each other. Let's hope they check all these out thoroughly first.
And, please, post what you know about spring floors (this one's old).
I am curious and am guessing that the knowledge is in this group
..
---Mary
Tegel Design + Planning
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:27:21 -0400
From: Leland Torrence <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mortar
Yep, that sounds more like what you said.
Best,
Leland
-----Original Message-----
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Edison Coatings
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 9:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar
That's not exactly the language of the precision statement, but essentially,
yes, it says that a 76% interlaboratory difference is the point at which it
would be considered excessive.
Edison Coatings, Inc.
Michael P. Edison
President
3 Northwest Drive
Plainville, CT 06062
Phone: (860) 747-2220 or (800)341-6621
Fax: (860)
747-2280
Internet: www.edisoncoatings.com
www.rosendalecement.net
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
---------- Original Message -----------
From: Leland Torrence <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:03:20 -0400
Subject: [BP] Mortar
> Mike,
> Is it true that ASTM E-96 allows for a 76% acceptable variance for testing
> moisture vapor transmission?
> Best,
> Leland
>
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
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--------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:33:56 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: To the congress of adepts
-------------------------------1239975236
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In a message dated 4/17/2009 9:23:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, writes:
a member of the religion that keeps the old and thinks about a good way
to make storm windows.
When we cooped my 1909 building on 90th and Broadway, to save the wooden
windows we put in exterior steel storms (colored to match the limestone,
instead of the landlord-black the windows had become). The cost was one-third
of the cost of crappy new modern ones.
This permitted us to bring in for repair the wooden windows, when necessary
(which has been very little done, since they are no longer exposed to
weather and thus stable). On the other hand, the exterior storms are not
balanced, and have to be lifted in their tracks - they're not heavy, but it
ain't simple. Plus, I never considered the cost of occasionally washing the
inside faces, which does indeed attract dirt.
But, yes to Rudy, they changed the exterior character.
c
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
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<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY=
: Arial"
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Dr=
ole_document
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 4/17/2009 9:23:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"=
><FONT
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 siz=
e=3D2>a member
of the religion that keeps the old and thinks about a good=
way to
make storm windows. </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When we cooped my 1909 building on 90th and Broadway, to save the woo=
den
windows we put in e
xterior steel storms (colored to match the limestone,=
instead
of the landlord-black the windows had become). The cost was one-thir=
d of
the cost of crappy new modern ones. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This permitted us to bring in for repair the wooden windows, when nec=
essary
(which has been very little done, since they are no longer exposed to weat=
her
and thus stable). On the other hand, the exterior storms are=
not
balanced, and have to be lifted in their tracks - they're not heavy, but=
it
ain't simple. Plus, I never considered the cost of occasionally wash=
ing
the inside faces, which does indeed attract dirt.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But, yes to Rudy, they changed the exterior character. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>c</DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:black;font:normal 10pt arial,=
san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Access 350+ FREE radio station=
s anytime from anywhere on the web. <a href=3D"http://toolbar.aol.com/aolr=
adio/download.html?ncid=3Demlcntusdown00000003">Get the Radio Toolbar</a>!=
</font></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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-----------------1239975236--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:45:39 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: tile and terrazzo floors
-------------------------------1239975939
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Someone help me get straight on bathroom floors.
1. OK, so I begin to see mosaic tile floors in bathrooms in the 1880s.
By "mosaic" I mean marble or marble-like squares, apparently individually
set, in irregular patterns, often with decorative designs. I imagine they
were laid and then smoothed in some way, like sanding. a) is that stuff
marble? b) since it is ground down (if it is) is that called "terrazzo"?
2. By the 1910s, the typical new-installation bathroom floor was very
regular, obviously machine made "tiles", by which I think I mean ceramic
units. a) In my 1922 apartment house, they were clearly "batch laid", that
is, they were made up in sheets off site and then laid wholesale, then
grouted. When did that come in, and how? b) Was there a transition phase
between the individual "marble" tiles above and the sheets of very regular
ceramic tiles?
3. Normally, I think of terrazzo as office building flooring from the
1920s or later, little bits of aggregate in a matrix, can be very lovely,
with=2
0brass strips, etc. Is that stuff really put down in a mix, allowed to
dry and then sanded down 1/16" or so? That's a lot of dust. And how long
does it take to dry - that must hang up the work place quite a while.
Christopher
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Someone help me get straight on bathroom floors. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1. OK, so I begin to see mosaic tile20floors in bathrooms=
in the
1880s. By "mosaic" I mean marble or marble-like squares, apparently=
individually set, in irregular patterns, often with decorative
designs. I imagine they were laid and then smoothed in some way, lik=
e
sanding. a) is that stuff marble? b) since it is=
ground
down (if it is) is that called "terrazzo"?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2. By the 1910s, the typical new-installation=
bathroom floor was very regular, obviously machine made "tiles", by which=
I
think I mean ceramic units. a) In my 1922 apartment hous=
e,
they were clearly "batch laid", that is, they were made up in sheets off=
site
and then laid wholesale, then grouted. When did that come in,=
and
how? b) Was there a transition phase between=
the
individual "marble" tiles above and the sheets of very regular ceramic
tiles? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>3. Normally, I think of terrazzo as office bui=
lding
flooring from the 1920s or later, little bits of aggregate in a matrix, ca=
n be
very lovely, with brass strips, etc. Is that stuff really put down=
in a
mix, allowed to dry and then sanded down 1/16" or so? That's=
a lot
of dust. And how long does it take to dry - that must hang up=
the
work place quite a while.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<D
IV>Christopher</DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:black;font:normal=
10pt arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Access 350+ FREE=
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:51:07 -0400
From: Rudy R Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tile and terrazzo floors
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> that must hang up the work place quite a while.
Christopher<
Time ran slower back then ..and the force of gravity was lower. That's why
we can't take time to build that way any more.and all of the structural
members have to be bigger.
Don't ask me about economics though. That really confuses me.
Rudy
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>></span></font><font size=3D2
color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> that must hang up the work place quite a =
while.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Christopher</span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>
</o:p></span></font></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-top:7.5pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Time ran slower =
back then
….and the force of gravity was lower. That’s why we =
can’t
take time to build that way any more…and all of the structural =
members
have to be bigger.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-top:7.5pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Don’t ask =
me about
economics though. That really confuses me.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-top:7.5pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Rudy<o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>
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color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
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</span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:58:12 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fenestrationally challenged
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In a message dated 4/17/2009 1:18:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Anyway, she said they were thinking about weatherizing the windows. I
hope she is now a member of the religion that keeps the old and thinks =
about a good way to make storm windows. That's the first question.
Mary,
While I'm sure there will be more rational and erudite discussion about th=
e
windows, I'd like to offer a few ideas about window weatherization- and=
I
do feel strongly that there is no reason to replace good, old well made=
windows. All of the basic stuff aside - weather stripping, etc, which goe=
s a20
very long way toward making them more efficient, I have a somewhat
different take on storms than my esteemed colleague Rudy, but agree that=
storm sash
is a great asset. I prefer them on the outside of the window sash for a=
couple of reasons: I've found that, in the case of my own hut (built in 17=
96
with 12 over 12 sash, "new" 6 over 6 windows installed in 1805 - an
extravagant upgrade), in a part of NY that gets avg 140" of snow a year,=
exterior
mounted storm sash protect the multi-light sash, glazing compound and sil=
ls
from weather in the winter, so that a repaint every three years is not a=
critical issue. I also like the idea that the weather is getting stopped=
between membranes on the outside of my window system, rather than between=
the
inner face of my multi-light sash and another membrane. From a cosmetic=
point of view, I enjoy looking at the delicate, hand planed muntins on my=
sash
in the winter, rather than the large lights that interior mounted sash
would present. Another reason, and this may be totally bizarre from a rat=
ional
point of view, is that I enjoy very much the process of the "closing up"=
of the house for the winter, like putting on its jacket for the coming sn=
ows
and wind - seeing a house with the storm sash on is like seeing your kid=
bundled20up with their hat and gloves. "Opening up" in the spring gives on=
e
an opportunity to make the close inspection of the windows, which because=
of
their nature (they really are pieces of case furniture attached to holes=
in the walls) are more prone to ravages of weather. All of this putting=
on
and taking off require labor, of course, but force you to LOOK at the
building at least twice a year and think about what it needs.
Twybil
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bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Dr=
ole_document
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 4/17/2009 1:18:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"=
><FONT
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 siz=
e=3D2>Anyway,
she said they were thinking about weatherizing the windows. I <BR>=
hope
she is now a member of the religion that keeps the old and thinks =
<BR>about a good way to make storm windows. That's the first
question.<BR><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Mary,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>While I'm sure there will be more rational and erudite discussion abo=
ut the
windows, I'd like to offer a few ideas about window weatherization- and I=
do
feel strongly that there is no reason to replace good, old well
made windows. All of the basic stuff aside - weather stripping, etc,=
which
goes a very long way toward making them more efficient, I have a somewhat=
different take on storms than my esteemed colleague Rud
y, but agree that=
storm
sash is a great asset. I prefer them on the outside of the window sas=
h for
a couple of reasons: I've found that, in the case of my own hut (built in=
1796
with 12 over 12 sash, "new" 6 over 6 windows installed in 1805 - an extrav=
agant
upgrade), in a part of NY that gets avg 140" of snow a year, ext=
erior
mounted storm sash protect the multi-light sash, glazing compoun=
d and
sills from weather in the winter, so that a repaint every three years=
is
not a critical issue. I also like the idea that the weather is getting sto=
pped
between membranes on the outside of my window system, rather than between=
the
inner face of my multi-light sash and another membrane. From a=
cosmetic point of view, I enjoy looking at the delicate, hand
planed muntins on my sash in the winter, rather than the large lights=
that
interior mounted sash would present. Another reason, and this may be total=
ly
bizarre from a rational point of view, is that I enjoy very much=
the
process of the "closing up" of the house for the winter, like putting on=
its
jacket for the coming snows and wind - seeing a house with the storm =
sash
on is like seeing your kid bundled up with their hat and gloves. "Opening=
up" in
the spring gives one an opportunity to make the close inspection of=
the
windows, which becau
se of their nature (they really are pieces of case fur=
niture
attached to holes in the walls) are more prone to ravages of weather.=
All
of this putting on and taking off require labor, of course, but force you=
to
LOOK at the building at least twice a year and think about what it needs.<=
/DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Twybil</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:black;font:normal 10pt=
arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Join ChristianMingle.co=
m<sup>®</sup> FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. <A HREF=
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-------------------------------1239980292--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:09:59 -0400=0
D
From: John Leeke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Any more BP kid stories?
Leland wants to know:
>>So is Jon Twentyfive now? The story makes me laugh because he sounds
just
like you, except he enjoyed getting paid at a much earlier age.<<
He'll be 40 in June! (I got a early start with wood and with kids) Let's
see, I think he was about 10 when he was selling his turnings. I think I
was about the same when my dad sent me across the street to fix a picket
in our neighbor's fence. The first job I know I got paid for because
when my dad passed away and I was going through his files I found the
job sheet. Got paid a dollar sixty five. Anyway, when Jon and I wrote
the article for Fine Woodworking he was 14. I split the $300 payment
with him, even up. I recall taking him out to lunch, handing him the
published issue, and a manila cash envelope stuffed with fives and ones,
it was about an inch thick and his eyes really bugged on that one.
>>When did
you start him on documentation and files?<<
I didn't push him on documentation in the shop, because he was busy
documenting in other directions. When he was ten I showed him how to
touch-type and he picked right up on it. He was typing daily, up early
before school, writing science fiction stories. He called it 'typing'
but really it was writin
g. When he was 13 he had a short science piece
published in Discovery Magazine, and a longer technical piece in a
sci-fi gaming magazine. By the time those came out in print he was
working on sci-fi stories and a novel, which he never got around to
publishing because he got into learning languages. You know how kids are
when discovering their talents and place in the world.
>>How do I get to the FW Archives?<<
The lathe article was reprinted in Fine Woodworking on Spindle Turning.
Taunton Press, 1987, which you might have on your shelf. WorldCat shows
it is not at a library near you. This is the problem with the 'big guns'
publishers, a piece drifts out of print and they are no longer
interested. I guess it's time to self-publish this one and get it back
out in the world instead of mouldering away here in my files.
John
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:19:35 -0400
From: John Leeke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: To the congress of adepts
Mary:
If you friend at the Grange Hall has access to the internet pass this
link at my website along to=2
0her:
Save Maine's Windows:
http://www.historichomeworks.com/hhw/education/SaveMaineWindows.htm
or, if not, she can feel free to give me a call at 207 773-2306.
John
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:43:25 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fenestra
-------------------------------1239983005
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 4/17/2009 11:00:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
From a cosmetic point of view, I enjoy looking at the delicate, hand
planed muntins on my sash in the winter, rather than the large lights that
interior mounted sash would present.
I should have mentioned that, for my 1909 apartment house, where we put on
exterior storms, the existing windows were 1/1, so the exterior 1/1 storms
did not compromise any divided lights. (Note to self: "Divided Lights"
- good title for memoir.) (Further note to self: stop forgetting things so
you still have something to put in your memoir besides whatever you find =0
D
in the BP archive.)
Another reason, and this may be totally bizarre from a rational point of
view, is that I enjoy very much the process of the "closing up" of the house
for the winter,
I loved helping my Dad get the giant wooden storms - beautiful, beautiful
things - up from the basement and onto the pins of our two-story house every
year. But, at around age 45, and working in the failing steel industry*,
he decided he found it hard to enjoy the view from a 20' ladder holding 30
pounds of wood, glass and lead paint. At age 58, I don't even like to
think about it.
c
*"Never, ever, ever, buy stock in a steel company." --Ralph L. Gray,
Chairman, Armco Steel, 1960-1964
**************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
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-------------------------------1239983005
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
=0
A<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3462" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Dr=
ole_document
face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3>
<DIV>In a message dated 4/17/2009 11:00:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"=
><FONT
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 siz=
e=3D2>From a
cosmetic point of view, I enjoy looking at the delicate, hand=
planed muntins on my sash in the winter, rather than the large ligh=
ts
that interior mounted sash would present.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>I should have mentioned that, for my 1909 apartment house, where we=
put on
exterior storms, the existing windows were 1/1, so the exterior 1/1 storms=
did
not compromise any divided lights. (Note to self: "Divid=
ed
Lights" - good title for memoir.) (Further note to self: stop forget=
ting
things so you still have something to put in your memoir besides whatever=
you
find in the BP archive.) </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px
solid"=
><FONT
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 siz=
e=3D2>Another
reason, and this may be totally bizarre from a rational point of view,&n=
bsp;is
that I enjoy very much the process of the "closing up" of the house=
for
the winter, </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>I loved helping my Dad get the giant wooden storms - beautiful, beaut=
iful
things - up from the basement and onto the pins of our two-story house eve=
ry
year. But, at around age 45, and working in the failing steel
industry*, he decided he found it hard to enjoy the view fr=
om a
20' ladder holding 30 pounds of wood, glass and lead paint. &nb=
sp; At
age 58, I don't even like to think about it. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>c</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>*"Never, ever, ever, buy stock in a steel company." --Ralph L.=
Gray,
Chairman, Armco Steel, 1960-1964 </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:black;font:normal 10pt=
arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Access 350+ FREE radio=
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-------------------------------1239983005--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:55:04 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fenestra
-------------------------------1239983704
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At age 58, I don't even like to think about it.
c-
I failed to mention that the hut is a 11/2 story Dutch frame, with much=
smaller original openings on the top floor gable ends. The storm sash th=
ere
are installed from the inside, just leaning out far enough to meet the
hooks. At age 58 you should have an offspring who is doing it for you. Ok,=
in
your dreams.
Tw.
**************Join ChristianMingle.com=AE FREE! Meet Christian Singles in=
your area. Start now!
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-------------------------------1239983704
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16809" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY=
: Arial"
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Dr=
ole_document
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"=
><FONT
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3D"Times New Roman" color=
=3D#000000
size=3D3>At age 58, I don't even like to think about it.
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>c-</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I failed to mention that the hut is a <U>11/2 story</U> Dutch frame,=
with
much smaller original openings on the top floor gable ends. The stor=
m sash
there are installed from the inside, just leaning out far enough to meet=
the
hooks. At age 58 you should have an offspring who is doing it for you=
. Ok,
in your dreams.</DIV>
<DIV&
gt; </DIV>
<DIV>Tw.</DIV></DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:black;font:normal 10p=
t arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Join ChristianMingle.c=
om<sup>®</sup> FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. <A HREF=
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footer&newurl=3Dreg_path.html>Start now!</A></font></DIV></BODY></=
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-------------------------------1239983704--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:10:28 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fenestra
-------------------------------1239984628
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 4/17/2009 11:55:51 A.M., _Twybil@DreamOn,Buster!.com_
(mailto:Twybil@DreamOn,Buster!.com) writes:
At age 58 you should have an offspring who is doing it for you.
No that house is out of the
family now. At the moment I have only a dower
interest in a house with waxed screens, all ground floor. c
PS what if Donna Summer took a fall for Johnny Winter in the spring?
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3462" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"
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<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 4/17/2009 11:55:51 A.M., <A
href=3D"mailto:Twybil@DreamOn,Buster!.com">Twybil@DreamOn,Bust
er!.com</A>=
writes: </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"=
><FONT
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 siz=
e=3D2>At age
58 you should have an offspring who is doing it for you.
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>No that house is out of the family now. At the moment I have on=
ly a
dower interest in a house with waxed screens, all ground
floor. c</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>PS what if Donna Summer took a fall for Johnny Winter in the
spring? </DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:bla=
ck;font:normal 10pt arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Acce=
ss 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. <a href=3D"h=
ttp://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=3Demlcntusdown00000003">=
Get the Radio Toolbar</a>!</font></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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-------------------------------1239984628--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:32:46 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fenestra
-------------------------------12399
85966
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
c-
Geeze, reminded me of my first crush, from the Howdy Doodie show. She was=
a
princess.
Twybold
**************Join ChristianMingle.com=AE FREE! Meet Christian Singles in=
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<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY=
: Arial"
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Dr=
ole_document
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>c-</DIV>
<DIV
> </DIV>
<DIV>Geeze, reminded me of my first crush, from the Howdy Doodie show. She=
was a
princess.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Twybold</DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:black;font:normal 10pt=
arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Join ChristianMingle.co=
m<sup>®</sup> FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. <A HREF=
=3Dhttp://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221246370x=
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footer&newurl=3Dreg_path.html>Start now!</A></font></DIV></BODY></=
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-------------------------------1239985966--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:45:26 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: windows
-------------------------------1239986726
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 4/17/2009 12:34:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
On the other hand, the exterior storms are not balanced, and have to be 0D
lifted in their tracks -
Plus I did not life-cycle the window washing costs. Modern crappy
windows do tilt in and can be washed by oneself. But keeping wooden ones
restricts you to commercial window washers - it is not hard to get to $175.00
for a three bedroom apartment, and after a month they are just as dirty.
However, after beating myself up about this, I found out that most people
couldn't be bothered to wash their own windows. Either they hired the
window washer, or they looked through a glass, darkly. c
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3462" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR:
#000000; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Dr=
ole_document
face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 4/17/2009 12:34:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time</DIV=
>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"=
><FONT
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 siz=
e=3D2>On the
other hand, the exterior storms are not balanced, and have to be lifted=
in
their tracks - </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Plus I did not life-cycle the window washing costs. Moder=
n
crappy windows do tilt in and can be washed by oneself. But ke=
eping
wooden ones restricts you to commercial window washers - it is not hard to=
get
to $175.00 for a three bedroom apartment, and after a month they are=
just
as dirty. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, after beating myself up about this, I found out that most pe=
ople
couldn't be bothered to wash their own windows. Either they hired th=
e
window washer, or they looked through a glass, darkly. &nb=
sp;
c</DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:black;font:normal 10pt arial,san-s=
erif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Access 350+ FREE radio stations any=
time from anywhere on the web. <a hr
ef=3D"http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/=
download.html?ncid=3Demlcntusdown00000003">Get the Radio Toolbar</a>!</fon=
t></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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-------------------------------1239986726--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:59:15 -0500
From: Jim Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fenestra
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C9BF7D.D6F157DC
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Paula Long
=20
________________________________
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Fenestra
=20
c-
=20
Geeze, reminded me of my first crush, from the Howdy Doodie show. She
was a princess.
=20
Twybold
=20
________________________________
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Paula =
Long<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
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font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
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listserv
where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, April 17, =
2009 11:33
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [BP] =
Fenestra</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>c-<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
0A<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Geeze, reminded me of my first =
crush,
from the Howdy Doodie show. She was a =
princess.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C9BF7D.D6F157DC--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:17:50 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fenestra
-------------------------------1239988670
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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Jim
I was
thinking Princess Summer Fall Winter Spring, played by Judy Tyler.=
Twybia
**************Join ChristianMingle.com=AE FREE! Meet Christian Singles in=
your area. Start now!
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ole_document
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>Jim</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I was thinking Princess Summer Fall Winter Spring, played by Judy Tyl=
er.
</DIV>
;
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Twybia</DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:black;font:normal 10pt=
arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Join ChristianMingle.co=
m<sup>®</sup> FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. <A HREF=
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-------------------------------1239988670--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:20:02 -0700
From: Mary Tegel <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: What about Mr. Bluster?
Tegel Design + Planning
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------------------------------
D
ate: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:21:14 -0500
From: Jim Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fenestra
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Twy, I had a good idea where you were headed, just ad libbing. BTW, I
couldn't have told you the princess' name.
=20
Not quite old enough
=20
________________________________
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:18 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Fenestra
=20
Jim
=20
I was thinking Princess Summer Fall Winter Spring, played by Judy Tyler.
=20
=20
=20
Twybia
=20
________________________________
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Twy, I had a good idea where you =
were
headed, just ad libbing. BTW, I couldn’t have told you the =
princess’
name.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Not quite old =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> The =
listserv
where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, April 17, =
2009 12:18
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [BP] =
Fenestra</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3
D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I was thinking Princess Summer =
Fall
Winter Spring, played by Judy Tyler. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=
</div>
<div>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
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y:Arial;color:black'>Twybia<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=
</div>
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color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C9BF80.E8F60C08--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:24:10 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What about Mr. Bluster?
-------------------------------1239989050
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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Mr. Bluster was the Princess' sugar daddy. I vividly recall a show where=
he
was supposed to meet her at his "home" and the background music to the
scene was "Hernando's Hideaway".
**************Join ChristianMingle.com=AE FREE! Meet Christian Singles in=
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--------1239989050
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ole_document
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>Mr. Bluster was the Princess' sugar daddy. I vividly recall a show wh=
ere he
was supposed to meet her at his "home" and the background music to the sce=
ne was
"Hernando's Hideaway". </DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:black;=
font:normal 10pt arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Join Ch=
ristianMingle.com<sup>®</sup> FREE! Meet Christian Singles in you=
r area. <A HREF=3Dhttp://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126=
575x1221246370x1201421635/aol?redir=3Dhttp://www.chris=
tianmingle.com/campaign.html?cat=adbuy&src=platforma&#=
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-------------------------------1239989050--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:24:40 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fenestra
-------------------------------1239989080
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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In a message dated 4/17/2009 1:21:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Not quite old enough
Thanks, puppy.
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face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 4/17/2009 1:21:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"=
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e=3D2><FONT
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style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Not quite old=
enough</SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks, puppy.</DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:black;font:norma=
l 10pt arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Join ChristianMin=
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:27:34 -0500
From: Jim Follett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fenestra
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Arf, Arf
=20
________________________________
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Fenestra
=20
In a message dated 4/17/2009 1:21:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Not quite old enough
Thanks, puppy.
=20
________________________________
Join ChristianMingle.com(r) FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area.
Start now!
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Arf, =
Arf<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> The =
listserv
where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, April 17, =
2009 12:25
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [BP] =
Fenestra</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>In a message dated 4/17/2009 =
1:21:41 P.M.
Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]=2
0=
writes:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Not quite old =
enough</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Thanks, =
puppy.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>=
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'margin-top:7.5pt;text-align:center'><font
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color:black'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-top:7.5pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Join
ChristianMingle.com<
;sup>®</sup> FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your =
area. <a
href=3D"http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221246370x1201421635/aol=
?redir=3Dhttp://www.christianmingle.com/campaign.html?cat=3Dadbuy&src=
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:44:13 -0400
From: John Walsh <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mortar
Leland,
I would not use that number with any confidence. The standard is not
written for mortar and the reported precision and bias may not apply. To my
knowledge, there has been no interlaboratory testing using E 96 for mortar
or brick.
John
-----Original
Message-----
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Leland Torrence
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:03 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [BP] Mortar
Mike,
Is it true that ASTM E-96 allows for a 76% acceptable variance for testing
moisture vapor transmission?
Best,
Leland
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:09:12 -0400
From: Edison Coatings <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mortar
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John,
I have long argued that the method does not yield highly reproducible res=0D
ults for mortars, but yet you see it referenced over and over in mortar s=
tudies and histopresto grad students think it's g-d's revealed word. What=
can you recommend as a better method?
I have also long argued that because of the lack of inTERlaboratory preci=
sion, it is virtually meaningless to compare various manufacturer's produ=
ct data sheets. The exception would be studies conducted in the same lab =
under the same conditions, because the inTRAlaboratory precision is a hel=
l of a lot better.
Edison Coatings, Inc.=20
Michael P. Edison=20
President=20
3 Northwest Drive=20
Plainville, CT 06062=20
Phone: (860) 747-2220 or (800)341-6621=20
Fax: (860)747-2280=20
Internet: www.edisoncoatings.com=20
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0www.rosendalecement.net=20
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
---------- Original Message -----------=20
From: John Walsh <[log in to unmask]>=20
To: [log in to unmask]=20
Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:44:13 -0400=20
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar
> Leland,=20
> I would not use that number with any confidence. =C2=A0The standard is =
not=20
> written for mortar and the reported precision and bias may not apply. =C2=
=A0=20
> To my knowledge, there has been no interlaboratory testing us
ing E 96=20
> for mortar or brick. John=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----=20
> From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking=20
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Leland Tor=
rence=20
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:03 AM=20
> To: [log in to unmask]=20
> Subject: [BP] Mortar=20
>=20
> Mike,=20
> Is it true that ASTM E-96 allows for a 76% acceptable variance for test=
ing=20
> moisture vapor transmission?=20
> Best,=20
> Leland=20
>=20
> --=20
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the=20
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:=20
> <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>=20
>=20
> --=20
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the=20
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:=20
> <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>=20
------- End of Original Message -------
=20
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<p>John,</p>
<p>I have long argued that the method does not yield highly reproducible re=
sults for mortars, but yet you see it referenced over and over in mortar st=
udies and histopresto grad students think it's g-d's revealed word. What ca=
n you recommend as a better method?</p>
<p>I have also long argued that because of the lack of inTERlaboratory prec=
ision, it is virtually meaningless to compare various manufacturer's produc=
t data sheets. The exception would be studies conducted in the same lab und=
er the same conditions, because the inTRAlaboratory precision is a hell of =
a lot better.<font size=3D"2">
<br />
<br />Edison Coatings, Inc.=20
<br />Michael P. Edison=20
<br />President=20
<br />3 Northwest Drive=20
<br />Plainville, CT 06062=20
<br />Phone: (860) 747-2220 or (800)341-6621=20
<br />Fax: (860)747-2280=20
<br />Internet: <a href=3D"http://www.edisoncoatings.com/" target=3D"_blank=
">www.edisoncoatings.co
m</a>=20
<br />=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.rosendaleceme=
nt.net/" target=3D"_blank">www.rosendalecement.net</a>=20
<br />E-Mail: [log in to unmask]=20
<br />
<br />---------- Original Message -----------=20
<br />From: John Walsh <[log in to unmask]>=20
<br />To: [log in to unmask]=20
<br />Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:44:13 -0400=20
<br />Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar=20
<br />
<br />> Leland,=20
<br />> I would not use that number with any confidence. =C2=A0The stand=
ard is not=20
<br />> written for mortar and the reported precision and bias may not a=
pply. =C2=A0=20
<br />> To my knowledge, there has been no interlaboratory testing using=
E 96=20
<br />> for mortar or brick. John=20
<br />>=20
<br />> -----Original Message-----=20
<br />> From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking=20
<br />> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lel=
and Torrence=20
<br />> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:03 AM=20
<br />> To: [log in to unmask]=20
<br />> Subject: [BP] Mortar=20
<br />>=20
<br />> Mike,=20
<br />> Is it true that ASTM E-96 allows for a 76% acceptable variance f=
or testing=20
<br />> moisture vapor transmission?=20
<br />> Best,=20
<br />> Leland=20
<br />>=20
<br />> --=20
<br />> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the=
=20
<br />> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:=20
<br />> <<a href=3D"http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pin=
heads.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka=
-pinheads.html</a>>=20
<br />>=20
<br />> --=20
<br />> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the=
=20
<br />> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:=20
<br />> <<a href=3D"http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pin=
heads.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka=
-pinheads.html</a>>=20
<br />------- End of Original Message -------=20
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:16:48 -0400
From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mortar
--2x8t6.4PyK5pGAV.1hNBze.3MQ3mfb
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> From: Edison Coatings
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:09 PM
>=20
> I have also long argued that because of the lack of=20
> inTERlaboratory precision, it is virtually meaningless to=20
> compare various manufacturer's product data sheets. The=20
> exception would be studies conducted in the same lab under=20
> the same conditions, because the inTRAlaboratory precision is=20
> a hell of a lot better.=20
Thanks, that saves me the trouble of posting a question comparing the produ=
ct data for two potential acrylic elastomeric coatings for my standing seam=
metal roof, and whether the modest differences in ASTM-referenced datapoin=
ts provide any substantive reason to choose one over the other.
Dan=
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he North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties =
by an authorized City or Law Enforcement official.=E2=80=9D
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:45:49 -0400
From: John Walsh <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mortar
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I think the concept of quantifiable vapor transmission is a hell of a lot
more complex in masonry than it is in homogeneous thin membranes for which E
96 is generally applied. Brick and mortar have variable permeabilities
dependent on where measured. Mortar is even more complicated once original
water content, tooling, and aging effects such as carbonation are
considered. My worry is having people hang their hat o
n a single number
without understanding the biases. Better method?...Full-scale E 96. Seal
your entire building with epoxy, heat to 90 degrees, fill your bathtub with
water, enclose the entire building in a Lucite bubble and measure its weight
changes over several weeks. But seriously, I don't have a problem with the
method, only in how the results are applied to wholesale masonry.
Understand what you're measuring and the results can be illuminating.
Otherwise, it's like assuming that drinking single malt is equivalent to
sucking on a wet burnt log just because you had one sip of Lagavulin.
Signed Balvenie
_____
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edison Coatings
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar
John,
I have long argued that the method does not yield highly reproducible
results for mortars, but yet you see it referenced over and over in mortar
studies and histopresto grad students think it's g-d's revealed word. What
can you recommend as a better method?
I have also long argued that because of the lack of inTERlaboratory
precision, it is virtually meaningless to compare various manufacturer's
product data sheets. The exception would be studies conducted in the same
lab unde
r the same conditions, because the inTRAlaboratory precision is a
hell of a lot better.
Edison Coatings, Inc.
Michael P. Edison
President
3 Northwest Drive
Plainville, CT 06062
Phone: (860) 747-2220 or (800)341-6621
Fax: (860)747-2280
Internet: www.edisoncoatings.com <http://www.edisoncoatings.com/>
www.rosendalecement.net <http://www.rosendalecement.net/>
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
---------- Original Message -----------
From: John Walsh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:44:13 -0400
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar
> Leland,
> I would not use that number with any confidence. The standard is not
> written for mortar and the reported precision and bias may not apply.
> To my knowledge, there has been no interlaboratory testing using E 96
> for mortar or brick. John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Leland
Torrence
> Sent: Friday, A
pril 17, 2009 8:03 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [BP] Mortar
>
> Mike,
> Is it true that ASTM E-96 allows for a 76% acceptable variance for testing
> moisture vapor transmission?
> Best,
> Leland
>
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
> <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
>
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
> <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think the concept of quantifiable vapor
transmission is a hell of a lot more complex in masonry than it is in
homogeneous thin membranes for which E 96 is generally applied. Brick and
mortar have variable permeabilities dependent on where measured. Mortar is
even more complicated once original water content, tooling, and aging effects
such as carbonation are considered. My worry is having people hang their
hat on a single number without understanding the biases. Better
method?...Full-scale
E 96. Seal your entire building with epoxy, heat to 90 degrees, fill your
bathtub with water, enclose the entire building in a Lucite bubble and measure
its weight changes over several weeks. But seriously, I don’t have
a problem with the method, only
in how the results are applied to wholesale
masonry. Understand what you’re measuring and the results can be
illuminating. Otherwise, it’s like assuming that drinking single
malt is equivalent to sucking on a wet burnt log just because you had one sip
of Lagavulin.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Signed Balvenie<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> The listserv
where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Edison Coatings<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, April 17, 2009 3:09
PM<br>
<
;b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [BP]
Mortar</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>John,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I have
long argued that the method does not yield highly reproducible results for
mortars, but yet you see it referenced over and over in mortar studies and
histopresto grad students think it's g-d's revealed word. What can you
recommend as a better method?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I have
also long argued that because of the lack of inTERlaboratory precision, it is
virtually meaningless to compare various manufacturer's product data sheets.
The exception would be studies conducted in the same lab under the same
conditions, because the inTRAlaboratory precision is a hell of a lot
better.</span></font><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <br>
<br>
Edison Coatings, Inc. <br>
Michael P. Edison <br&g
t;
President <br>
3 Northwest Drive <br>
Plainville, CT 06062 <br>
Phone: (860) 747-2220 or (800)341-6621 <br>
Fax: (860)747-2280 <br>
Internet: <a href="http://www.edisoncoatings.com/" target="_blank">www.edisoncoatings.com</a>
<br>
<a href="http://www.rosendalecement.net/"
target="_blank">www.rosendalecement.net</a> <br>
E-Mail: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">[log in to unmask]</st1:PersonName>
<br>
<br>
---------- Original Message ----------- <br>
From: John Walsh <[log in to unmask]> <br>
To: [log in to unmask] <br>
Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:44:13 -0400 <br>
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar <br>
<br>
> Leland, <br>
> I would not use that number with any confidence. The standard is not
<br>
> written for mortar and the reported precision and bias may not apply.
<br>
> To my knowledge, there has been no interlaboratory testing using E 96 <br>
> for mortar or brick. John <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message----- <br>
> From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking <br>=0
D
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Leland
Torrence <br>
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:03 AM <br>
> To: [log in to unmask] <br>
> Subject: [BP] Mortar <br>
> <br>
> Mike, <br>
> Is it true that ASTM E-96 allows for a 76% acceptable variance for testing
<br>
> moisture vapor transmission? <br>
> Best, <br>
> Leland <br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the <br>
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <br>
> <<a href="http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html"
target="_blank">http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html</a>>
<br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the <br>
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <br>
> <<a href="http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html"
target="_blank">http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html</a>>
<br>
-----
-- End of Original Message ------- </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
--
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uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html
--
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uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html
--Boundary_(ID_quwaTOItJ0DaYABjHMJwww)--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:01:08 -0700
From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: thoughts about conferences
Fer sure Ken, get them thar lights out from under the baskets, QUICK for
you start a fire!!! This is a "red flag" fire danger day up here. Ruth
OK, that's supposed to be the required humor.
At 9:19 PM -0400 4/14/09, Gabriel Orgrease wrote:
That all makes me feel real good.
Eric... you got time for the 40+ questions?
This is the time to pull our burning lights from under our baskets.
][<
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:51:01 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Think happy thoughts
-------------------------------1240012261
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Real Estate Record & Guide, March 15, 1930: "The worst is behind us.=E2=
=80=9D
**************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the=
web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=3Demlcntusdown00000003=
)
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-------------------------------1240012261
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ole_document
face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3>
<DIV>Real Estate Record & Guide, March 15, 1930: "The wors=
t is
behind us.=E2=80=9D </DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:bla=
ck;font:normal 10pt arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/>Acce=
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-------------------------------1240012261--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:01:14 -0400
From: Rudy R Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mortar
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C9BF97.4493BEB0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Best part of being on this list is knowing I'm a woodworker!
Glad to share the single malt wi'ya.
Woody
_____
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Walsh
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 6:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar
I think the concept of quantifiable vapor transmission is a hell of a lot
more complex in masonry than it is in homogeneous thin membranes for which E
96 is generally applied. Brick and mortar have variable permeabilities
dependent on where measured. Mortar is even more complicated once original
water content, tooling, and aging effects such as carbonation are
considered. My worry is having people hang their hat on a single number
without understanding the biases. Better method?...Full-scale E 96. Seal
your entire building with epoxy, heat to 90 degrees, fill your bathtub with
water, enclose the entire building in a Lucite bubble and measure its weight
changes over several weeks. But seriously, I don't have a problem with the
method, only in how the results are applied to wholesale masonry.
Understand what you're measuring and the results can be illuminating.
Otherwise, it's like assuming that drinking single malt is equivalent to
sucking on a wet burnt log just because you had one sip of Lagavulin.
Signed Balvenie
_____
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Be
half Of Edison Coatings
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar
John,
I have long argued that the method does not yield highly reproducible
results for mortars, but yet you see it referenced over and over in mortar
studies and histopresto grad students think it's g-d's revealed word. What
can you recommend as a better method?
I have also long argued that because of the lack of inTERlaboratory
precision, it is virtually meaningless to compare various manufacturer's
product data sheets. The exception would be studies conducted in the same
lab under the same conditions, because the inTRAlaboratory precision is a
hell of a lot better.
Edison Coatings, Inc.
Michael P. Edison
President
3 Northwest Drive
Plainville, CT 06062
Phone: (860) 747-2220 or (800)341-6621
Fax: (860)747-2280
Internet: www.edisoncoatings.com <http://www.edisoncoatings.com/>
www.rosendalecement.net <http://www.rosendalecement.net/>
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
---------- Original Message -----------
From: John Walsh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:44:13 -0400
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar
> Leland,
> I would not use that number with any confidence. The standard is not
> written for mortar and the reported precision and bias may not apply.
> To my knowledge, there has been no interlaboratory testing using E 96
> for mortar or brick. John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Leland
Torrence
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:03 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [BP] Mortar
>
> Mike,
> Is it true that ASTM E-96 allows for a 76% acceptable variance for testing
> moisture vapor transmission?
> Best,
> Leland
>
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
> <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
>
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
> <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
------- End of Original Message -------
-- To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html -- To terminate
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your settings, go to:
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--
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uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best part of being on this list is =
knowing
I’m a woodworker!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Glad to share the single malt =
wi’ya.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Woody<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face3D3DArial><span =
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<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
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face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">The listserv where the buildings do the =
talking</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Walsh<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, April 17, =
2009 6:46
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [BP] =
Mortar</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think the concept of quantifiable =
vapor
transmission is a hell of a lot more complex in masonry than it is in
homogeneous thin membranes for which E 96 is generally applied. =
Brick and
mortar have variable permeabilities dependent on where measured. =
Mortar
is even more complicated once original water content, tooling, and aging
effects such as carbonation are considered. My worry is having =
people
hang their hat on a single number without understanding the =
biases.
Better method?...Full-scale E 96. Seal your entire building with =
epoxy,
heat to 90 degrees, fill your bathtub with water, enclose the entire =
building
in a Lucite bubble and measure its weight changes over several =
weeks. But
seriously, I don’t have a problem with the method, only in how the
results are applied to wholesale masonry. Understand what =
you’re
measuring and the results can be illuminating. Otherwise, =
it’s like
assuming that drinking single malt is equivalent to sucking on a wet =
burnt log
just because you had one sip of Lagavulin.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Signed =
Balvenie<o:p></o:p></span>
;</font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">The listserv where the buildings do the =
talking</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Edison Coatings<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, April 17, =
2009 3:09
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [BP] =
Mortar</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Ro
man"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>John,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I have
long argued that the method does not yield highly reproducible results =
for
mortars, but yet you see it referenced over and over in mortar studies =
and
histopresto grad students think it's g-d's revealed word. What can you
recommend as a better method?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I have
also long argued that because of the lack of inTERlaboratory precision, =
it is
virtually meaningless to compare various manufacturer's product data =
sheets.
The exception would be studies conducted in the same lab under the same
conditions, because the inTRAlaboratory precision is a hell of a lot =
better.</span></font><font
size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> <br>
<br>
Edison Coatings, Inc. <br>
Michael P. Edison <br>
President <br>
3 Northwest Drive <br>
Plainville, CT 06062 <br>
Phone: (860) 747-2220 or (800)341-6621 <br>
Fax: (860)747-2280 <br>
Internet: <a href=3D"http://www.edisoncoatings.com/" =
target=3D"_b
lank">www.edisoncoatings.com</a>
<br>
<a =
href=3D"http://www.rosendalecement.net/"
target=3D"_blank">www.rosendalecement.net</a> <br>
E-Mail: <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">[log in to unmask]</st1:PersonName> <br>
<br>
---------- Original Message ----------- <br>
From: John Walsh <[log in to unmask]> <br>
To: [log in to unmask] <br>
Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:44:13 -0400 <br>
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar <br>
<br>
> Leland, <br>
> I would not use that number with any confidence. The standard =
is not
<br>
> written for mortar and the reported precision and bias may not =
apply.
<br>
> To my knowledge, there has been no interlaboratory testing using E =
96 <br>
> for mortar or brick. John <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message----- <br>
> From: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">The listserv where the buildings =
do the
talking</st1:PersonName> <br>
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Leland
Torrence <br>
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:03 AM &
lt;br>
> To: [log in to unmask] <br>
> Subject: [BP] Mortar <br>
> <br>
> Mike, <br>
> Is it true that ASTM E-96 allows for a 76% acceptable variance for =
testing
<br>
> moisture vapor transmission? <br>
> Best, <br>
> Leland <br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the <br>
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <br>
> <<a =
href=3D"http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.=
html</a>>
<br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the <br>
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <br>
> <<a =
href=3D"http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.=
html</a>>
<br>
------- End of Original Message ------- </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C9BF97.4493BEB0--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:24:34 -0400
From: Gabriel Orgrease <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: thoughts about conferences
Ruth Barton wrote:
> Fer sure Ken, get them thar lights out from under the baskets, QUICK for you
start a fire!!! This is a "red flag" fire danger day up here. Ruth
>
> OK, that's supposed to be the required humor.
lol
][<
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:27:42 -0400
From: Derek Trelstad <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mortar
If the following is true:
Lagavulun =3D sucking on a wet burnt log :: Laphroaig =3D chewing a peat =
bog
Then one could conclude that:
Black Label =3D licking the wet char from a summer beam in an 18th =
century frame
Which means:
Black Label :: ????
(a) the big bottle of Jim Beam at the Liquor Mart down the street
(b) the gelled gasoline in an Old Mr. Boston bottle (in the "well" being =
sold as Scotch)
(c) a case of Clan McGregor in plastic jugs
(d) none of the above
(e) all of the above
(f) i don't drink scotch
(g) only an long-lurking engineer would think of a response like this...
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking on behalf of Rudy =
R Christian
Sent: Fri 4/17/09 8:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar
=20
Best part of being on this list is knowing I'm a woodworker!
=20
Glad to share the single malt wi'ya.
=20
Woody
=20
=20
_____ =20
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Walsh
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2
009 6:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar
=20
I think the concept of quantifiable vapor transmission is a hell of a =
lot
more complex in masonry than it is in homogeneous thin membranes for =
which E
96 is generally applied. Brick and mortar have variable permeabilities
dependent on where measured. Mortar is even more complicated once =
original
water content, tooling, and aging effects such as carbonation are
considered. My worry is having people hang their hat on a single number
without understanding the biases. Better method?...Full-scale E 96. =
Seal
your entire building with epoxy, heat to 90 degrees, fill your bathtub =
with
water, enclose the entire building in a Lucite bubble and measure its =
weight
changes over several weeks. But seriously, I don't have a problem with =
the
method, only in how the results are applied to wholesale masonry.
Understand what you're measuring and the results can be illuminating.
Otherwise, it's like assuming that drinking single malt is equivalent to
sucking on a wet burnt log just because you had one sip of Lagavulin.
Signed Balvenie
=20
_____ =20
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edison =
Coatings
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:09 PM
To:=2
0[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar
=20
John,
I have long argued that the method does not yield highly reproducible
results for mortars, but yet you see it referenced over and over in =
mortar
studies and histopresto grad students think it's g-d's revealed word. =
What
can you recommend as a better method?
I have also long argued that because of the lack of inTERlaboratory
precision, it is virtually meaningless to compare various manufacturer's
product data sheets. The exception would be studies conducted in the =
same
lab under the same conditions, because the inTRAlaboratory precision is =
a
hell of a lot better.=20
Edison Coatings, Inc.=20
Michael P. Edison=20
President=20
3 Northwest Drive=20
Plainville, CT 06062=20
Phone: (860) 747-2220 or (800)341-6621=20
Fax: (860)747-2280=20
Internet: www.edisoncoatings.com <http://www.edisoncoatings.com/> =20
www.rosendalecement.net <http://www.rosendalecement.net/> =20
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]=20
---------- Original Message -----------=20
From: John Walsh <[log in to unmask]>=20
To: [log in to unmask]=20
Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:44:13 -0400=20
Subject: Re: [BP] Mortar=20
> Leland,=20
> I would not use that number with any confidence. The standard is not=20
> written for mortar and the reported precision and bias may not apply. =
=20
> To my knowledge, there has been no interlaboratory testing using E 96=20
> for mortar or brick. John=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----=20
> From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking=20
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Leland
Torrence=20
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:03 AM=20
> To: [log in to unmask]=20
> Subject: [BP] Mortar=20
>=20
> Mike,=20
> Is it true that ASTM E-96 allows for a 76% acceptable variance for =
testing
> moisture vapor transmission?=20
> Best,=20
> Leland=20
>=20
> --=20
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the=20
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:=20
> <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>=20
>=20
> --=20
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the=20
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:=20
> <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>=20
------- End of Original Message -------=20
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puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to =
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------------------------------
End of BULLAMANKA-PINHEADS Digest - 17 Apr 2009 to 18 Apr 2009 (#2009-99)
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