-------------- Original message --------------
From: JULIE MELTON <[log in to unmask]>

> Brad,
>
> Then what do you think "cloud of witnesses" means? I don't think our loved
> ones are the focus of our faith, and I don't continuallly dwell on their
> watching over us. However, God being the focus doesn't preclude loved ones
> watching and even cheering us on in the race.
>
> I also resent the implication that your approach is truth and mine is based
> on emotion. I've studied the context of that scripture before, and that's
> always been my interpretation and that of many others.
>
> JulieMelton
> visit me at
> www.heart-and-music.com
> or subscribe to my podcast at
> http://feed.feedburner.com/hmradio
> Keep smiling!
>
>
> ----- Original Mess age -----
> From: "MV" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:36 PM
> Subject: Re: wondering.
>
>
> > Chapter and verse are for our benefit and so reading "through" the
> > beginning of Chapter 12, starting back in Chapter 11 we have...
> >
> >
> > By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the
> > Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned. By faith the walls of
> > Jericho
> > fell down after they were encircled for seven days. By faith the harlot
> > Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received
> > the spies with peace. And what more shall I say? For the time would fail
> > me
> > to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and
> > Samuel and the prophets: who through faith su bdued kingdoms, worked
> > righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched
> > the
> > violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made
> > strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the
> > aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were
> > tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better
> > resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and
> > of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were
> > tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and
> > goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented-- of whom the world was
> > not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of
> > the earth. And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, > > did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us,
> > that they should not be made perfect apart from us. Therefore we also,
> > since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside
> > every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with
> > endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author
> > and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured
> > the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the
> > throne of God.
> >
> > Seems to me a laundry list of examples of peoples trials and triumphs were
> > listed stating they did not receive the promise but God indeed had
> > something better in mind for us, and the "cloud of witnesses" is a point
> > of
> > historical reference on which we can look upon knowi ng we, although may
> > endure hardship, will indeed receive the promise. Also note the early
> > list
> > of events and how they all mention they had "faith", it didn't say they
> > were being comforted by the watchful eye of those who earlier passed on.
> > Faith I think we can safely presume is that in and from God. To me taking
> > those three words and stretching it to be watchful eyes from above is
> > unhealthy. If you notice the continuance shows Jesus to be the focus of
> > our
> > faith and and not those who have gone before us. I'd have to see
> > supporting
> > Scripture to see this. I think we have to look at it from God's
> > perspective
> > as much as we possibly can. He is our focus, our point of faith and
> > comfort, our joy, our peace and not those we loved in this world who have
> > passed on. That doesn't mean we stop looking on their memory as a loving
> > thing, or that we don't find our selves changed by them or that they stop
> > living in our hearts, but I'm not sure God would approve of them being a
> > point of comfort, peace, thinking they are watching over us in stead or
> > along with him, or even the thought they take part in our aid here? I'm
> > sorry, I can not respect that thought. It is nice to think, to help make
> > our emotional shortcomings easier to deal with, but that doesn't make it
> > truth. I'd like to see more Scripture reference on this please.
> >
> > Brad
> >