The cloud of witnesses are the ones who witness to us while they were on earth. -- Christ is the reason for the season. If there was not Chirst. There would be no Christ-mas. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!! Karen Carter Class of '74 -------------- Original message -------------- From: JULIE MELTON <[log in to unmask]> > Brad, > > Then what do you think "cloud of witnesses" means? I don't think our loved > ones are the focus of our faith, and I don't continuallly dwell on their > watching over us. However, God being the focus doesn't preclude loved ones > watching and even cheering us on in the race. > > I also resent the implication that your approach is truth and mine is based > on emotion. I've studied the context of that scripture before, and that's > always been my interpretation and that of many others. > > JulieMelton > visit me at > www.heart-and-music.com > or subscribe to my podcast at > http://feed.feedburner.com/hmradio > Keep smiling! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "MV" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:36 PM > Subject: Re: wondering. > > > > Chapter and verse are for our benefit and so reading "through" the > > beginning of Chapter 12, starting back in Chapter 11 we have... > > > > > > By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the > > Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned. By faith the walls of > > Jericho > > fell down after they were encircled for seven days. By faith the harlot > > Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received > > the spies with peace. And what more shall I say? For the time would fail > > me > > to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and > > Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked > > righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched > > the > > violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made > > strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the > > aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were > > tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better > > resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and > > of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were > > tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and > > goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented-- of whom the world was > > not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of > > the earth. And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, > > did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, > > that they should not be made perfect apart from us. Therefore we also, > > since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside > > every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with > > endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author > > and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured > > the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the > > throne of God. > > > > Seems to me a laundry list of examples of peoples trials and triumphs were > > listed stating they did not receive the promise but God indeed had > > something better in mind for us, and the "cloud of witnesses" is a point > > of > > historical reference on which we can look upon knowing we, although may > > endure hardship, will indeed receive the promise. Also note the early > > list > > of events and how they all mention they had "faith", it didn't say they > > were being comforted by the watchful eye of those who earlier passed on. > > Faith I think we can safely presume is that in and from God. To me taking > > those three words and stretching it to be watchful eyes from above is > > unhealthy. If you notice the continuance shows Jesus to be the focus of > > our > > faith and and not those who have gone before us. I'd have to see > > supporting > > Scripture to see this. I think we have to look at it from God's > > perspective > > as much as we possibly can. He is our focus, our point of faith and > > comfort, our joy, our peace and not those we loved in this world who have > > passed on. That doesn't mean we stop looking on their memory as a loving > > thing, or that we don't find our selves changed by them or that they stop > > living in our hearts, but I'm not sure God would approve of them being a > > point of comfort, peace, thinking they are watching over us in stead or > > along with him, or even the thought they take part in our aid here? I'm > > sorry, I can not respect that thought. It is nice to think, to help make > > our emotional shortcomings easier to deal with, but that doesn't make it > > truth. I'd like to see more Scripture reference on this please. > > > > Brad > >