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Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:22:10 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Lawrence Kestenbaum <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Dan Becker wrote:
> Several years ago the school system=B9s Facilities Department stunned us =
with
> an 11th-hour proposal to demolish our neighborhood 1920s elementary schoo=
l
> (after all previous discussion had been renovation) at a meeting on the
> Monday evening before Thanksgiving; they would be seeking approval for th=
e
> proposal at the December 1 Board meeting. Needless to say we did not spen=
d
> our Thanksgiving holiday watching moon rises and moon sets; instead my
> neglected visiting family members watched us engage deeply in strategy
> planning efforts.
So, what happened? You left out the end of the story!
Larry, County-Clerk-elect
---
Lawrence Kestenbaum, [log in to unmask]
The Political Graveyard, http://politicalgraveyard.com
Mailing address: P.O. Box 2563, Ann Arbor MI 48106
---1463777023-808544354-1101529330=:9070--
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:34:46 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gabriel Orgrease <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
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Dan Becker wrote:
>
> /Each building within our inventory represents a significant
> amount of “embodied energy”—the amount of energy invested in
> the [construction] and improvements to the facility. The shell
> of a two-story brick residential structure contains over 1
> billion Btu’s of energy in construction materials alone. This
> is equivalent to about 8,000 gallons of gasoline. The
> replacement of a building results in the loss of that
> “embodied energy,” plus the added energy cost to demolish the
> building, remove and dispose of the debris, and manufacture,
> deliver, and place materials for a new building. DoD, the
> Services and the nation benefit when we conserve our energy
> investment by reusing historic structures. The process of
> rehabilitating a historic facility consumes less energy than
> new construction. And, the energy costs of operating a
> rehabilitated structure vs. a new structure are effectively equal.
> /
>
>
> / Also, the process of rehabilitating a historic facility to
> meet current operational standards consumes less energy than
> new construction. Even when major repairs, additions, or
> alterations are needed to achieve use and energy conservation
> goals, they generally require less energy than demolition and
> replacement of a historic structure.
> /
>
> /The Benefits of Cultural Resource Conservation/, U.S. Department
> of Defense
>
>
Dan,
This is excellent information on embodied energy and I thank you for
providing it.
I will use it as an argument for conservation of resources.
Connect in this point of connection with environmental politics and
histo presto/maintenance of built environment quickly can be seen as a
viable political movement.
So in here somewhere is there a connection of Secretary of Interior
Standards to the practice of conservation of energy in the process of
conservation?
Along with, Do no harm... might we have, and don't waste a lot of
energy/resources in the least intervention?
Not quite yet the Green Party, but a political action nevertheless.
And further, Where in the mix comes the conservation of the resource of
traditional trade skills?
Need to know.
][<en (chair PTN education committee)
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:38:41 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gabriel Orgrease <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A note on cussing...
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
A 6 year old and a 4 year old are upstairs in their bedroom.
You know what?" says the 6 year old. "I think it's about time we started
cussing."
The 4 year old nods his head in approval.
The 6 year old continues, "When we go downstairs for breakfast, I'm
gonna say something with 'hell' and you say something with 'ass'.
The 4 year old agrees with enthusiasm.
When their mother walks into the kitchen and asks the 6 year old what he
wants for breakfast, he replies, "Aw, hell, Mom, I guess I'll have some
Cheerios."
...... WHACK! He flies out of his chair, tumbles across the kitchen
floor, gets up, and runs upstairs crying his eyes out, with his mother
in hot pursuit, slapping his rear with every step.
His mom locks him in his room and shouts, "You can just stay there until
I let you out!"
She then comes back downstairs, looks at the 4 year old and asks with a
stern voice,
"And what do YOU want for breakfast, young man?"
"I don't know " he blubbers, "but you can bet your fat ass it won't be
Cheerios!!!
--
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:10:35 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Heritage Interpretation Services
Subject: Re: A note on cussing...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Heritage oriented cartoon script :
Tiny tot kid on playground talking to his little pal :
"Jimmy found a condom beside the veranda!"
Little pal :
"What's a veranda?"
cp in bc
>
> "I don't know " he blubbers, "but you can bet your fat ass it won't be
> Cheerios!!!
>
--
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 05:05:14 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A note on cussing...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101549914"
-------------------------------1101549914
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 11/27/2004 4:17:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Heritage oriented cartoon script :
Tiny tot kid on playground talking to his little pal :
"Jimmy found a condom beside the veranda!"
Little pal :
"What's a veranda?"
A sad day, indeed.
Ralph
-------------------------------1101549914
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 4:17:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>Heritage=20
oriented cartoon script :<BR><BR>Tiny tot kid on playground talking to his=
=20
little pal :<BR> "Jimmy found a condom beside the=20
veranda!"<BR><BR>Little pal :<BR> "What's a=20
veranda?"<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>A sad day, indeed.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101549914--
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uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:24:14 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The local high school is doing a vast 5yr renovation and building project.
This is a building that was originally built for occupancy in fall of
1952. It is costing $55 million to do this but I believe it is much less
expensive than the all new building that was proposed at one time. We are
adding a 2nd story to part of the building and some of the--not original
but addition--building had to be torn out and start over but most is being
renovated. Also have built a whole new Technical Education Center which is
what used to be Vocational Education. Just keep changing names as one name
gets known as the place where kids can learn something practical with which
to earn a living. We have several really good programs there and are
adding new ones as money permits. They are hoping to add a masonry class
in the next few years. Know any good masonry teachers who would like to
start a program from the ground up?
I think the rule of thumb is 3# of grain to each # of turkey, not sure if
that is live wt or dressed.
At 12:28 PM -0500 11/26/04, Dan Becker wrote:
On 11/25/04 2:15 PM, "Cuyler Page" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
What is meant by "embodied energy" ?
Several years ago the school system's Facilities Department stunned us with
an 11th-hour proposal to demolish our neighborhood 1920s elementary school
(after all previous discussion had been renovation) at a meeting on the
Monday evening before Thanksgiving; they would be seeking approval for the
proposal at the December 1 Board meeting. Needless to say we did not spend
our Thanksgiving holiday watching moon rises and moon sets; instead my
neglected visiting family members watched us engage deeply in strategy
planning efforts.
But I digress. One of the issue points in our communique to the school
board discussed "embodied energy" (sorry Ralph, desperate people will
grasp at any straw to avoid being identified solely by their sweatshirt
slogans):
Issue: Energy and life-cycle cost of renovated structure
The renovation of Underwood School conserves more than just dollars. It
also conserves energy and landfill space: as Preservation North Carolina
states, "preservation is the ultimate recycling."
Energy is not measured just by the amount required to tear down and build
anew. It is also measured by the "embodied energy" existing in the current
facility. It required energy-both human and mechanical-to create the brick
in the wall of the building. That embodied energy is being thrown away
(even while we exhibit concern about long-term energy shortages) when a
building is razed.
Public entities should be guardians of scarce resources. The U.S.
Department of Defense effectively makes this point:
Each building within our inventory represents a significant amount of
"embodied energy"-the amount of energy invested in the [construction] and
improvements to the facility. The shell of a two-story brick residential
structure contains over 1 billion Btu's of energy in construction materials
alone. This is equivalent to about 8,000 gallons of gasoline. The
replacement of a building results in the loss of that "embodied energy,"
plus the added energy cost to demolish the building, remove and dispose of
the debris, and manufacture, deliver, and place materials for a new
building. DoD, the Services and the nation benefit when we conserve our
energy investment by reusing historic structures. The process of
rehabilitating a historic facility consumes less energy than new
construction. And, the energy costs of operating a rehabilitated structure
vs. a new structure are effectively equal.
Also, the process of rehabilitating a historic facility to meet current
operational standards consumes less energy than new construction. Even
when major repairs, additions, or alterations are needed to achieve use and
energy conservation goals, they generally require less energy than
demolition and replacement of a historic structure.
The Benefits of Cultural Resource Conservation, U.S. Department of Defense
How can we teach our children to recycle by placing little storage bins in
the cafeteria, while unnecessarily filling the landfill with the entire
building? What kind of an example are we setting?
No less an authority than the US Dept. of Defense! Not exactly known as an
apologist for preservation. If a two-story residential shell (assume 2,000
sq. ft.) is 8,000 gals. of gas, then our 78,000 sq. ft. two-story solid
brick wall school is roughly the equivalent of 312,000 gallons of gas,
which at $2.00/gallon equates to $624,000. Not exactly turkey feed.
Sign me,
dan i wonder how much turkey feed it takes to make a 40 pound turkey and
how big is ruth's oven anyway becker
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
--
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:23:16 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Not exactly, we did cheat a tiny bit this year--cut about 2" of bone off
each leg to get him in the oven. We should have tied his legs down when we
butchered him but forgot. Ruth
At 5:41 PM -0500 11/26/04, [log in to unmask] wrote:
Sign me,
dan i wonder how much turkey feed it takes to make a 40 pound turkey
probably a good deal more and how big is ruth's oven anyway evidently big
enough becker Ralph
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:05:25 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Pamela S. Follett" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Office 2003 - 75% OFF
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Gee, Dan, we're having fun again, ain't we?
- Pam
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Alice A. Walker=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 18:44
Subject: [BP] Microsoft Office 2003 - 75% OFF
Get all the software you ever imagined for unbelievably low =
prices!
Our software is 2-10 times cheaper than sold by our competitors.
Examples:
$80 Windows XP Professional
$120 Microsoft Office 2003 Professional
$100 Adobe Photoshop 8.0/CS
$50 Norton Internet Security Pro 2004 Professional (Including: =
AntiVirus + AntiSpam + Firewall)
$180 Macromedia Studio MX 2004 (Including: Dreamweaver MX + =
Flash MX + Fireworks MX)
$150 Adobe Acrobat 6.0 Professional
$20 Red Hat Linux 7.3
Categories: Business, Internet, Antivirus, Security, etc.
And lots more... Visit us at:
http://www.anysoft.biz
Sincerely,
Alice A. Walker
_____________________________________________________=20
To be taken out, go here: http://www.anysoft.biz/uns.htm
_____________________________________________________=20
=20
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C4D460.3B8C0EC0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gee, Dan, we're having fun again, ain't =
we?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Pam</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Alice A.=20
Walker</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
[log in to unmask]
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BULLAMANKA-PINH=
[log in to unmask]</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 26, 2004 =
18:44</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [BP] Microsoft Office =
2003 - 75%=20
OFF</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<CENTER>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D800 align=3Dcenter =
border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD>Get all the software you ever imagined for unbelievably low=20
prices!<BR>Our software is 2-10 times cheaper than sold by our=20
competitors.<BR><BR>Examples:<BR><BR>$80 Windows XP =
Professional<BR>$120=20
Microsoft Office 2003 Professional<BR>$100 Adobe Photoshop =
8.0/CS<BR>$50=20
Norton Internet Security Pro 2004 Professional (Including: =
AntiVirus +=20
AntiSpam + Firewall)<BR>$180 Macromedia Studio MX 2004 =
(Including:=20
Dreamweaver MX + Flash MX + Fireworks MX)<BR>$150 Adobe Acrobat =
6.0=20
Professional<BR>$20 Red Hat Linux 7.3<BR><BR>Categories: =
Business,=20
Internet, Antivirus, Security, etc.<BR>And lots more... Visit us =
at:<BR><BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.anysoft.biz">http://www.anysoft.biz</A><BR><BR>Sincere=
ly,<BR>Alice=20
A.=20
=
Walker<BR><BR><BR>_____________________________________________________=20
<BR>To be taken out, go here: <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.anysoft.biz/uns.htm">http://www.anysoft.biz/uns.htm</A=
><BR>_____________________________________________________=20
=
<P></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:07:31 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101568051"
-------------------------------1101568051
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In a message dated 11/27/2004 8:43:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
I think the rule of thumb is 3# of grain to each # of turkey, not sure if
that is live wt or dressed.
Was yours 40 lbs live or...post-live?
Ralph
-------------------------------1101568051
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 8:43:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>I think=20
the rule of thumb is 3# of grain to each # of turkey, not sure if<BR>that=20=
is=20
live wt or dressed.<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Was yours 40 lbs live or...post-live?</DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101568051--
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:08:51 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101568130"
-------------------------------1101568130
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In a message dated 11/27/2004 8:43:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Not exactly, we did cheat a tiny bit this year--cut about 2" of bone off
each leg to get him in the oven. We should have tied his legs down when we
butchered him but forgot. Ruth
Guess THAT was easier once he was in post-alive status, huh?
Ralph
-------------------------------1101568130
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 8:43:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>Not=20
exactly, we did cheat a tiny bit this year--cut about 2" of bone off<BR>ea=
ch=20
leg to get him in the oven. We should have tied his legs down when=20
we<BR>butchered him but forgot. Ruth<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Guess THAT was easier once he was in post-alive status, huh?</DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101568130--
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:10:30 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence Kestenbaum [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 11:22 PM
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Dan Becker wrote:
>=20
> > Several years ago the school system's Facilities Department=20
> > stunned us with an 11th-hour proposal to demolish our =20
> > neighborhood 1920s elementary school=20
>=20
> So, what happened? You left out the end of the story!
Heh. Wonder if anybody would notice that part.
It was incredibly consuming and stressful, for a not insignificant
period of time (Ken, remember talking about tuck-pointing evaluations?),
but we dragged them kicking and screaming all the way to success: they
were recently given a Sir Walter Award for Community Appearance in the
Historic Preservation category for their wonderful efforts at rehabbing
the existing building and the compatible additions.
__________________________________________________
Dan Becker, Exec. Dir. "Oh joy! Rapture! Now
Raleigh Historic I have a brain!"
Districts Commission - Scarecrow
[log in to unmask] =20
919/807-8480
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:10:42 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gabriel Orgrease [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
> Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 1:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [BP] Embodied Energy ?
>=20
>=20
> So in here somewhere is there=20
> a connection of Secretary of Interior Standards to the=20
> practice of conservation of energy in the process of=20
> conservation? Along with, Do no harm... might we have, and=20
> don't waste a lot of energy/resources in the least=20
> intervention? Not quite yet the Green Party, but a political=20
> action nevertheless.=20
Indeed, and we are not nearly there yet. We have here in Raleigh a much
celebrated "green" renovation that completely ignored the historic
character of the former Esso station, with its stucco walls and terra
cotta tile "mansard" roof detailing. Now it's a multi-colored thing with
steel channel beams over the fenestration openings with no terra cotta
roof edging that has plants growing on the roof and a brewery kettle in
the parking lot for roof water runoff.
> And further, Where in the mix comes the=20
> conservation of the resource of traditional trade skills?=20
> Need to know.
More merging required.
We need Vulcan Mind Meld. It will save us centuries of groping if we can
just teleport to the future now.
_______________________________________________________
Dan Becker, Exec. Dir. "The workman ought often to
Raleigh Historic be thinking, and the thinker
Districts Commission often to be working."
[log in to unmask] -- John Ruskin
919/807-8480=20
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:13:20 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101568400"
-------------------------------1101568400
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In a message dated 11/27/2004 10:10:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
It was incredibly consuming and stressful, for a not insignificant
period of time (Ken, remember talking about tuck-pointing evaluations?),
but we dragged them kicking and screaming all the way to success: they
were recently given a Sir Walter Award for Community Appearance in the
Historic Preservation category for their wonderful efforts at rehabbing
the existing building and the compatible additions.
Best of all possible worlds: at your insistence, they did a good thing and
got a kewpie doll for it! And the award itself has such a good name, too.
Ralph.
-------------------------------1101568400
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 10:10:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>It was=20
incredibly consuming and stressful, for a not insignificant<BR>period of t=
ime=20
(Ken, remember talking about tuck-pointing evaluations?),<BR>but we dragge=
d=20
them kicking and screaming all the way to success: they<BR>were recently g=
iven=20
a Sir Walter Award for Community Appearance in the<BR>Historic Preservatio=
n=20
category for their wonderful efforts at rehabbing<BR>the existing building=
and=20
the compatible additions.<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Best of all possible worlds: at your insistence, they did a good thing=20=
and=20
got a kewpie doll for it! And the award itself has such a good name,=20
too.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101568400--
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:18:04 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101568684"
-------------------------------1101568684
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 11/27/2004 10:10:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Indeed, and we are not nearly there yet. We have here in Raleigh a much
celebrated "green" renovation that completely ignored the historic
character of the former Esso station, with its stucco walls and terra
cotta tile "mansard" roof detailing. Arrgghh! Now it's a multi-colored thing
with
steel channel beams over the fenestration openings with no terra cotta
roof edging that has plants growing on the roof and a brewery kettle in
the parking lot for roof water runoff.
> And further, Where in the mix comes the
> conservation of the resource of traditional trade skills?
> Need to know.
More merging required.
We need Vulcan Mind Meld. It will save us centuries of groping if we can
just teleport to the future now. Yes, but can we teleport the built
environment, too? If so, we can just go back to the period of significance and
bring it all forward, minus the later alterations, fires, earthquakes, etc.
Except that would put us out of business. This may not be such a good thing
after all.
Ralph
-------------------------------1101568684
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 10:10:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>Indeed,=20
and we are not nearly there yet. We have here in Raleigh a much<BR>celebra=
ted=20
"green" renovation that completely ignored the historic<BR>character of th=
e=20
former Esso station, with its stucco walls and terra<BR>cotta tile "mansar=
d"=20
roof detailing. <STRONG>Arrgghh! </STRONG>Now it's a multi-colored thing=20
with<BR>steel channel beams over the fenestration openings with no terra=20
cotta<BR>roof edging that has plants growing on the roof and a brewery ket=
tle=20
in<BR>the parking lot for roof water runoff.<BR><BR>> And further, Wher=
e in=20
the mix comes the <BR>> conservation of the resource of traditional tra=
de=20
skills? <BR>> Need to know.<BR><BR>More merging required.<BR><BR>We nee=
d=20
Vulcan Mind Meld. It will save us centuries of groping if we can<BR>just=20
teleport to the future now. <STRONG>Yes, but can we teleport the built=20
environment, too? If so, we can just go back to the period of=20
significance and bring it all forward, minus the later alterations,=20
fires, earthquakes, etc. Except that would put us out of=20
business. This may not be such a good thing after=20
all.</STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><STRONG>Ralph</STRONG></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101568684--
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:29:06 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gabriel Orgrease <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Becker, Dan wrote:
>Ken, remember talking about tuck-pointing evaluations?
>
10-4. Sure do remember.
][<
--
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uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:31:48 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C4D496.35F72671"
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-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 10:18 AM
In a message dated 11/27/2004 10:10:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Indeed, and we are not nearly there yet. We have here in Raleigh a much
celebrated "green" renovation that completely ignored the historic
character of the former Esso station, with its stucco walls and terra
cotta tile "mansard" roof detailing. Arrgghh! Yeah, it really makes me
see red. Wouldn't you know it though, it's the offices of the
artichokes...a billboard for their philosophy that I have to choke on
each time I pass it. But hey...at least they took advantage of the
embodied energy represented in the bricks of the wall, right? If only
they hadn't produced disembodied architecture. Dan
Now it's a multi-colored thing with
steel channel beams over the fenestration openings with no terra cotta
roof edging that has plants growing on the roof and a brewery kettle in
the parking lot for roof water runoff. =20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C4D496.35F72671
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charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
[log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
November 27,=20
2004 10:18 AM</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT=20
id=3Drole_document>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 10:10:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid">
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Indeed, and we =
are not=20
nearly there yet. We have here in Raleigh a much<BR>celebrated =
"green"=20
renovation that completely ignored the historic<BR>character of the =
former=20
Esso station, with its stucco walls and terra<BR>cotta tile =
"mansard" roof=20
detailing. <STRONG>Arrgghh! </STRONG><FONT color=3D#ff0000>Yeah, it =
really=20
makes me see red. Wouldn't you know it though, it's the offices =
of the=20
artichokes...a billboard for their philosophy that I have to choke =
on each=20
time I pass it. But hey...at least they took advantage of the =
embodied=20
energy represented in the bricks of the wall, right? If only they =
hadn't=20
produced disembodied architecture. Dan</FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"><BR></FONT>Now it's a =
multi-colored=20
thing with<BR>steel channel beams over the fenestration openings =
with no=20
terra cotta<BR>roof edging that has plants growing on the roof and a =
brewery=20
kettle in<BR>the parking lot for roof water runoff.<SPAN=20
class=3D703112815-27112004> =20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C4D496.35F72671--
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uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 11:02:12 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101571332"
-------------------------------1101571332
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 11/27/2004 10:32:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Indeed, and we are not nearly there yet. We have here in Raleigh a much
celebrated "green" renovation that completely ignored the historic
character of the former Esso station, with its stucco walls and terra
cotta tile "mansard" roof detailing. Arrgghh! Yeah, it really makes me see
red. Wouldn't you know it though, it's the offices of the artichokes Serves
the bastards right. You'd think it would make THEM choke. Does it at least
LOOK like it's a tarted-up gas station that these morons are working from? At
least there would be some justice in that. ...a billboard for their
philosophy that I have to choke on each time I pass it. If their philosophy is a load
of shit, then why shouldn't you choke on it? But hey...at least they took
advantage of the embodied energy represented in the bricks of the wall, right?
Another reason why that notion is a load of shit; if this design solution
saved 1 BTU more than a complete restoration, isn't it be BETTER by definition?
If only they hadn't produced disembodied architecture. So it's disemboweled
architecture. Maybe they'll be disemboweled architects some day. Look at the
bright side!Dan
Now it's a multi-colored thing with
steel channel beams over the fenestration openings with no terra cotta
roof edging that has plants growing on the roof and a brewery kettle in
the parking lot for roof water runoff. Sounds like the Salvation Army (or
Summit Mall) mode, to me. Aren't magpies the birds that collect bits of
tinfoil and similar junk to decorate their nests? Like Heckle and Jeckle....
Ralph
-------------------------------1101571332
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 10:32:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Indeed, and we are not=20=
nearly=20
there yet. We have here in Raleigh a much<BR>celebrated "green" renovation=
=20
that completely ignored the historic<BR>character of the former Esso stati=
on,=20
with its stucco walls and terra<BR>cotta tile "mansard" roof detailing.=20
<STRONG>Arrgghh! </STRONG><FONT color=3D#ff0000>Yeah, it really makes me s=
ee=20
red. Wouldn't you know it though, it's the offices of the artichokes=20
<STRONG>Serves the bastards right.</STRONG> <STRONG>You'd think it w=
ould=20
make THEM choke. Does it at least LOOK like it's a tarted-up gas station t=
hat=20
these morons are working from? At least there would be some justice=20=
in=20
<U>that</U>. </STRONG>...a billboard for their philosophy that I have to c=
hoke=20
on each time I pass it. <STRONG>If their philosophy is a load of shit, the=
n=20
why shouldn't you choke on it? </STRONG>But hey...at least they took advan=
tage=20
of the embodied energy represented in the bricks of the wall, right?=20
<STRONG>Another reason why that notion is a load of shit; if this design=20
solution saved 1 BTU more than a complete restoration, isn't it be BETTER=20=
by=20
definition? </STRONG>If only they hadn't produced disembodied architecture=
.=20
<STRONG>So it's disemboweled architecture. Maybe they'll be disemboweled=20
architects some day. Look at the bright side!</STRONG>Dan</FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"><BR></FONT>Now it's a multi-colore=
d=20
thing with<BR>steel channel beams over the fenestration openings with no t=
erra=20
cotta<BR>roof edging that has plants growing on the roof and a brewery ket=
tle=20
in<BR>the parking lot for roof water runoff.<SPAN=20
class=3D703112815-27112004> <STRONG>Sounds like the Salvation Army (=
or=20
Summit Mall) mode, to me. Aren't magpies the birds that collec=
t=20
bits of tinfoil and similar junk to decorate their nests? =20=
Like=20
Heckle and Jeckle....</STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><STRONG>Ralph</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
/SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101571332--
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 11:16:56 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C4D49C.83D6B7A2"
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C4D49C.83D6B7A2
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=20
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Embodied Energy ?
In a message dated 11/27/2004 10:32:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Indeed, and we are not nearly there yet. We have here in Raleigh a much
celebrated "green" renovation that completely ignored the historic
character of the former Esso station, with its stucco walls and terra
cotta tile "mansard" roof detailing. Arrgghh! Yeah, it really makes me
see red. Wouldn't you know it though, it's the offices of the artichokes
Serves the bastards right. You'd think it would make THEM choke. Does
it at least LOOK like it's a tarted-up gas station that these morons are
working from? At least there would be some justice in that. Looking at
it makes me feel blue. You asked for it:
<http://www.brownandjones.com/news.htm>
http://www.brownandjones.com/news.htm and
<http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/swetc/greenroofs/main.htm>
http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/swetc/greenroofs/main.htm ...a billboard for
their philosophy that I have to choke on each time I pass it. If their
philosophy is a load of shit, then why shouldn't you choke on it? But
hey...at least they took advantage of the embodied energy represented in
the bricks of the wall, right? Another reason why that notion is a load
of shit; if this design solution saved 1 BTU more than a complete
restoration, isn't it be BETTER by definition? If only they hadn't
produced disembodied architecture. So it's disemboweled architecture.
Maybe they'll be disemboweled architects some day. Look at the bright
side!Dan
Now it's a multi-colored thing with
steel channel beams over the fenestration openings with no terra cotta
roof edging that has plants growing on the roof and a brewery kettle in
the parking lot for roof water runoff. Sounds like the Salvation Army
(or Summit Mall) mode, to me. Aren't magpies the birds that collect
bits of tinfoil and similar junk to decorate their nests? Like Heckle
and Jeckle....
Ralph
=20
=20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C4D49C.83D6B7A2
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
[log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, November 27, 2004 =
11:02=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
Re: [BP] Embodied Energy ?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT =
id=3Drole_document=20
color=3D#000000>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 10:32:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=3D#000000>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Indeed, and we =
are not=20
nearly there yet. We have here in Raleigh a much<BR>celebrated =
"green"=20
renovation that completely ignored the historic<BR>character of the =
former=20
Esso station, with its stucco walls and terra<BR>cotta tile =
"mansard" roof=20
detailing. <STRONG>Arrgghh! </STRONG><FONT color=3D#ff0000>Yeah, it =
really=20
makes me see red. Wouldn't you know it though, it's the offices =
of the=20
artichokes <STRONG>Serves the bastards right.</STRONG> =
<STRONG>You'd=20
think it would make THEM choke. Does it at least LOOK like it's a =
tarted-up=20
gas station that these morons are working from? At least there =
would=20
be some justice in <U>that</U>. </STRONG><SPAN=20
class=3D828490816-27112004><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff> <STRONG>Looking at it makes me feel blue. You =
asked for=20
it: </STRONG></FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.brownandjones.com/news.htm"><STRONG><FONT=20
=
color=3D#0000ff>http://www.brownandjones.com/news.htm</FONT></STRONG></A>=
<FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><STRONG> </STRONG><STRONG>and </STRONG></FONT><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/swetc/greenroofs/main.htm"><STRONG><FONT=
=20
=
color=3D#0000ff>http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/swetc/greenroofs/main.htm</FONT>=
</STRONG></A><STRONG><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></STRONG></FONT></SPAN>...a billboard for =
their=20
philosophy that I have to choke on each time I pass it. <STRONG>If =
their=20
philosophy is a load of shit, then why shouldn't you choke on it?=20
</STRONG>But hey...at least they took advantage of the embodied =
energy=20
represented in the bricks of the wall, right? <STRONG>Another reason =
why=20
that notion is a load of shit; if this design solution saved 1 BTU =
more than=20
a complete restoration, isn't it be BETTER by definition? =
</STRONG>If only=20
they hadn't produced disembodied architecture. <STRONG>So it's =
disemboweled=20
architecture. Maybe they'll be disemboweled architects some day. =
Look at the=20
bright side!</STRONG>Dan</FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"><BR></FONT>Now it's a =
multi-colored=20
thing with<BR>steel channel beams over the fenestration openings =
with no=20
terra cotta<BR>roof edging that has plants growing on the roof and a =
brewery=20
kettle in<BR>the parking lot for roof water runoff.<SPAN=20
class=3D703112815-27112004> <STRONG>Sounds like the Salvation =
Army (or=20
Summit Mall) mode, to me. Aren't magpies the birds that =
collect=20
bits of tinfoil and similar junk to decorate their =
nests? =20
Like Heckle and Jeckle....</STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><STRONG>Ralph</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 11:48:27 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101574107"
-------------------------------1101574107
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 11/27/2004 11:17:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
_http://www.brownandjones.com/news.htm_
(http://www.brownandjones.com/news.htm) and _http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/swetc/greenroofs/main.htm_
(http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/swetc/greenroofs/main.htm) ...
I don't see what you're bitching about, Dan. They have a 3' wide sliding
glass door in the bulkhead on the roof of their 1 story gas station. Looks
good to me.
Maybe they'll go broke soon.
Ralph
-------------------------------1101574107
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 11:17:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D828490816-27112004><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><STRONG></STRONG></FONT><A=20
title=3Dhttp://www.brownandjones.com/news.htm=20
href=3D"http://www.brownandjones.com/news.htm"><STRONG><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>http://www.brownandjones.com/news.htm</FONT></STRONG></A><=
FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><STRONG> </STRONG><STRONG>and </STRONG></FONT><A=20
title=3Dhttp://www.soil.ncsu.edu/swetc/greenroofs/main.htm=20
href=3D"http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/swetc/greenroofs/main.htm"><STRONG><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/swetc/greenroofs/main.htm</FONT><=
/STRONG></A><STRONG><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></STRONG></FONT></SPAN>...</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DI=
V>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I don't see what you're bitching about, Dan. They have a 3' wide=20
sliding glass door in the bulkhead on the roof of their 1 story gas=20
station. Looks good to me.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Maybe they'll go broke soon.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101574107--
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 11:14:12 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
40# oven ready. Ruth
At 10:07 AM -0500 11/27/04, [log in to unmask] wrote:
In a message dated 11/27/2004 8:43:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
I think the rule of thumb is 3# of grain to each # of turkey, not sure if
that is live wt or dressed.
Was yours 40 lbs live or...post-live?
Ralph
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:19:53 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Heritage Interpretation Services
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01C4D47B.666864C0"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Yes, but can we teleport the built environment, too? If so, we can =
just go back to the period of significance and bring it all forward,=20
I'm eagerly waiting for the gismo that we can attach to a wall so we can =
hear the embedded vibrations left by voices in the past. "If only the =
walls could talk."
cp in bc
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C4D47B.666864C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1476" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 bgColor=3D#ffffff leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 =
rightMargin=3D7>
<DIV><FONT id=3Drole_document face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2> <STRONG>Yes, but can we teleport the built environment, =
too? =20
If so, we can just go back to the period of significance and bring =
it all=20
forward, </STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'm eagerly waiting for =
the gismo=20
that we can attach to a wall so we can hear the embedded vibrations left =
by=20
voices in the past. "If only the walls could=20
talk."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>cp in =
bc</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:22:45 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Heritage Interpretation Services
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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> Now it's a multi-coloured thing with
>steel channel beams over the fenestration
>openings with no terra cotta roof edging
>that has plants growing on the roof and a
>brewery kettle in the parking lot for roof
>water runoff.
Sounds like something to document now for future preservationists wanting to
recreate our era. The "Swatch Watch" comes alive!
cp in currently historic bc
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:31:32 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-------------------------------1101601892
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In a message dated 11/27/2004 3:24:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
40# oven ready. Ruth
Wow.
Ralph
-------------------------------1101601892
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 3:24:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>40# oven=20
ready. Ruth<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Wow.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101601892--
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:33:42 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101602021"
-------------------------------1101602021
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In a message dated 11/27/2004 3:25:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
I'm eagerly waiting for the gismo that we can attach to a wall so we can
hear the embedded vibrations left by voices in the past. "If only the walls
could talk."
You'll be getting Ruth's leftovers before the brick playback device comes on
the market.
Ralph
PS--Plaster version comes out 40 days later than that.
-------------------------------1101602021
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 3:25:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'm eagerly waiting for t=
he gismo=20
that we can attach to a wall so we can hear the embedded vibrations left b=
y=20
voices in the past. "If only the walls could=20
talk."</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>You'll be getting Ruth's leftovers before the brick playback device com=
es=20
on the market.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>PS--Plaster version comes out 40 days later than=20
that.</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 21:19:30 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Lawrence Kestenbaum <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Embodied Energy ?
In-Reply-To: <004401c4d4be$fba84440$821ac2cf@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004, Cuyler Page wrote:
> I'm eagerly waiting for the gismo that we can attach to a wall so we can
> hear the embedded vibrations left by voices in the past. "If only the
> walls could talk."
Then, the walls really will have ears.
And anyone seeking to keep their conversations private will want to
quickly demolish any building they ever frequented.
Or at least tear out the plaster and put up Dryvit ...
Larry
---
Lawrence Kestenbaum, [log in to unmask]
The Political Graveyard, http://politicalgraveyard.com
Mailing address: P.O. Box 2563, Ann Arbor MI 48106
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 09:01:50 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Leland Torrence <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dan and Whit's
In-Reply-To: <a043101aabdc99d7d3d43@[216.114.165.27]>
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Ruth,
Dan and Whit's must be one of the best non-commercial (no catalogue)
general stores anywhere. I love the back hardware room. "If you can't
get it here, you don't need it." As for your turkey, what kind of oven
do you have to fit a 40 pounder. We did a 42 last Sunday, but it went
to a restaurant.
Hope all enjoyed a great Thanksgiving.
Best,
Leland
-----Original Message-----
From: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ruth
Barton
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 9:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Dartmouth Library
Leland, So you know about Dan & Whit's too?? I was friends of the
Cossinghams, up on the hill. Used to go up there a lot, back in the
days before I-91. Ruth
At 5:30 AM -0500 11/23/04, Leland Torrence wrote:
>Ruth,
>My Dad retired to Norwich in 1984 (we had a farm in Pomfret), so I
>spent a fair amount of time in that library when we weren't in the
>bars. My college girl friend was from Hanover as well. Best,
>Leland
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 09:20:04 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Leland Torrence <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What farming?
In-Reply-To: <a043101abbdc99e126066@[216.114.165.27]>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Ruth,
It is not what you would call farming; farming is hard work. No cows
since the 1960's. We have 18 acres under plow and supplement the farm
stand that is run by our neighbor and has been a stand for about 50
years. The farm was 380 acres at its biggest some 150 years ago. The
farm was started in 1786 and has been in the Clarke/Sorenson/Hubbell
family until six years ago when a fellow of means bought 44 acres.
Carroll Hubbell and Bob Sorenson (along with their spouses) still live
in the main farm house. Carroll runs the stand and Bob fixes all the
1950's tractors and equipment. Chris, his nephew does most of the
farming, I spend about eight to 24 hours a week helping out (there are
two to ten Mexicans at any time). We plant a lot by hand. Before
sunset, upon occasion, you can spot men women and children, eight to ten
white people planting!: snap dragons, sunflowers, brussel sprouts,
peas, lettuce, corn, pumpkins, gourds, you get the idea. We had two
acres of sun flowers right outside my office window this summer. Mike,
Ken and John have all been to visit, but call ahead, my wife is a great
cook, but not to keen on neighbors or surprise visitors. If you are
ever through New Haven, give a call. By the way, I wonder how long it
would take to get from Vermont to New Haven on route 5 now?
Best,
Leland
-----Original Message-----
From: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ruth
Barton
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 9:16 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Romeo where art thou ?
Leland, Where do you farm? We don't have much space between the
killing and the eating either. Just did the turkey in this afternoon.
Ours weighed in at 40#. We knew he'd be big. We bought him about 6 wks
ago from a guy who said he wanted to get rid of him because he was
eating so much. Has a nice fat layer under the skin so he'll be nice
and moist, won't need to inject him with butter!
As to hunting, we're lazy hunters. We wait for neighbors to hit one in
front of the house with a car. Happened last yr and we got a nice 135#
buck out of it.
Hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving. Anyone going to the big parade?
Ruth
At 5:26 AM -0500 11/23/04, Leland Torrence wrote:
Hey Michael, great morning reading as usual. I don't hunt any more and
the 24 pound turkey I let, dressed and plucked on Sunday was farm
raised, but I make sure my young boys are involved. I think it is
important not to allow too much distance between the killing and eating;
one looses respect. However, I could have bagged the two six pointers on
my lawn yesterday with a lacrosse ball. Our sub-urban Romeos have
little fear. In the summer they jump the pool fence and eat the young
hastia at my window. We had a great blue Heron stop at the court yard
in June and enjoy an appetizer of 26 coy and one baby snapper from the
fountain. Laura and I like to sit out there in the early morning and
watch the fish and turtles, not much of a show after Mr. Beady Eye's
visit. Best, Leland
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:33:12 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Beans stalk,corn has ears
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In a message dated 11/28/2004 2:00:42 AM Central Standard Time, Ruth writes:
I'm eagerly waiting for the gismo that we can attach to a wall so we can
hear the embedded vibrations left by voices in the past. "If only the walls
could talk."
Is odor included ?
Back in the day we had an elderly (cuzin) who would visit and every morning
and leave a "blue cloud" in the commode room to which we had no delight in
locking my younger brother in only to listen to his suffering ......no .....its
not an experience I want to revisit. Py
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<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/28/2004 2:00:42 AM Central Standard Time, Ru=
th writes:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #3dffff" face=3DArial>I'm eagerly wait=
ing for the gismo that we can attach to a wall so we can<BR>hear the e=
mbedded vibrations left by voices in the past. "If only th=
e walls<BR>could talk."</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Is odor included ?</DIV>
<DIV>Back in the day we had an elderly (cuzin) who would visit and ever=
y morning and leave a "blue cloud" in the commode room to which we had no de=
light in locking my younger brother in only to listen to his suffering .....=
.no .....its not an experience I want to revisit. Py</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:21:36 -0500
Reply-To: "John Leeke, Preservation Consultant"
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
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From: "John Leeke, Preservation Consultant"
<[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Historic HomeWorks
Subject: You say veranda, I say ramada
X-To: Discussion List for Old House Lovers
<[log in to unmask]>,
Preservation-L MailList <[log in to unmask]>
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Speaking of "veranda," what about "ramada?" I've got a definition, but what
I need is a photo.
Another porch type from the southwest: "Ramada," a porch built with
natural branches and sticks often found at the doorway of adobe structures
in past centuries.
Not to be confused with the name "Ramada Inn" more recently made popular by
the lodging chain. Nor confused with an open shelter built of modern
materials, which is also sometimes known as a ramada. In the old days,
built of natural materials we knew this sort of open shelter as a "brush
arbor," and sat through may sweltering Sunday afternoons under the brush
arbor at the prayer meetings held on the slight hill just west of town.
I had searched far and wide last winter for a name for the ramada (after
seeing
one in an old Clint Eastwood movie!) and finally found that it is real with
a real name. Now I renew my search for a good photo of a ramada built of
natural branches attached to a building.
John
by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:59:16 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What farming?
In-Reply-To: <009f01c4d555$5fb85970$6401a8c0@Leland>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Leland, That depends on what state your New Haven is in. I take it's not
the one in Vermont. Ruth
At 9:20 AM -0500 11/28/04, Leland Torrence wrote:
>Ruth,
>It is not what you would call farming; farming is hard work. No cows
>since the 1960's. We have 18 acres under plow and supplement the farm
>stand that is run by our neighbor and has been a stand for about 50
>years. The farm was 380 acres at its biggest some 150 years ago. The
>farm was started in 1786 and has been in the Clarke/Sorenson/Hubbell
>family until six years ago when a fellow of means bought 44 acres.
>Carroll Hubbell and Bob Sorenson (along with their spouses) still live
>in the main farm house. Carroll runs the stand and Bob fixes all the
>1950's tractors and equipment. Chris, his nephew does most of the
>farming, I spend about eight to 24 hours a week helping out (there are
>two to ten Mexicans at any time). We plant a lot by hand. Before
>sunset, upon occasion, you can spot men women and children, eight to ten
>white people planting!: snap dragons, sunflowers, brussel sprouts,
>peas, lettuce, corn, pumpkins, gourds, you get the idea. We had two
>acres of sun flowers right outside my office window this summer. Mike,
>Ken and John have all been to visit, but call ahead, my wife is a great
>cook, but not to keen on neighbors or surprise visitors. If you are
>ever through New Haven, give a call. By the way, I wonder how long it
>would take to get from Vermont to New Haven on route 5 now?
>Best,
>Leland
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:19:46 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 40 days
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Py-
I'll be the buyer - in return for your never disappointing prose.
BTW, during one of my errant weekends from RISD (Rhode Island Institute for
Sexual Deviance) in the 60's I made for MV, where during a walk on the south
coast (I believe) I came across a BRICK BARN, which was quite fantastic, and
had been turned into a residence by one Peter Colt Josephs. Anyone else ever
see this, or was it the result of ingestion of one of Dr. Leary's candies?
Twybil
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>Py-</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'll be the buyer - in return for your never disappointing prose. </DIV=
>
<DIV>BTW, during one of my errant weekends from RISD (Rhode Island Institute=
for=20
Sexual Deviance) in the 60's I made for MV, where during a walk on the south=
=20
coast (I believe) I came across a BRICK BARN, which was quite fantastic, and=
had=20
been turned into a residence by one Peter Colt Josephs. Anyone else ever see=
=20
this, or was it the result of ingestion of one of Dr. Leary's candies?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Twybil</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:22:07 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A note on cussing...
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In a message dated 11/27/2004 5:05:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
A sad day, indeed.
True, everybody knows verandah is spelled with an "h".
TwybilSingh
-------------------------------1101676927
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/27/2004 5:05:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>
<DIV>A sad day, indeed.</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>True, everybody knows verandah is spelled with an "h".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TwybilSingh</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:31:40 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Leland Torrence <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What farming?
In-Reply-To: <a04310182bdcfde5d9d67@[216.114.162.99]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Yep... New Haven, CT... Although I and my mate Rob built a house in NHVT
for an English bloke...
Best,
Leland
-----Original Message-----
From: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ruth
Barton
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 2:59 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] What farming?
Leland, That depends on what state your New Haven is in. I take it's
not the one in Vermont. Ruth
At 9:20 AM -0500 11/28/04, Leland Torrence wrote:
>Ruth,
>It is not what you would call farming; farming is hard work. No cows
>since the 1960's. We have 18 acres under plow and supplement the farm
>stand that is run by our neighbor and has been a stand for about 50
>years. The farm was 380 acres at its biggest some 150 years ago. The
>farm was started in 1786 and has been in the Clarke/Sorenson/Hubbell
>family until six years ago when a fellow of means bought 44 acres.
>Carroll Hubbell and Bob Sorenson (along with their spouses) still live
>in the main farm house. Carroll runs the stand and Bob fixes all the
>1950's tractors and equipment. Chris, his nephew does most of the
>farming, I spend about eight to 24 hours a week helping out (there are
>two to ten Mexicans at any time). We plant a lot by hand. Before
>sunset, upon occasion, you can spot men women and children, eight to
>ten white people planting!: snap dragons, sunflowers, brussel sprouts,
>peas, lettuce, corn, pumpkins, gourds, you get the idea. We had two
>acres of sun flowers right outside my office window this summer. Mike,
>Ken and John have all been to visit, but call ahead, my wife is a great
>cook, but not to keen on neighbors or surprise visitors. If you are
>ever through New Haven, give a call. By the way, I wonder how long it
>would take to get from Vermont to New Haven on route 5 now? Best,
>Leland
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:50:54 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 40 days
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In a message dated 11/28/2004 4:19:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> in the 60's I made for MV, where during a walk on the south coast (I
> believe) I came across a BRICK BARN, which was quite fantastic, and had been turned
> into a residence by one Peter Colt Josephs. Anyone else ever see this, or
>
Peter C. Josephs, 10 Guerin Lane, Chilmark, [508-]645-9270.
best, christopher
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10>In a message dated 11/28/2004 4:19:5=
8 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-=
LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">in the 60's I made for MV,=20=
where during a walk on the south coast (I believe) I came across a BRICK BAR=
N, which was quite fantastic, and had been turned into a residence by one Pe=
ter Colt Josephs. Anyone else ever see this, or was it the result of ingesti=
on of one of Dr. Leary's candies?</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Peter C. Josephs, 10 Guerin Lane, Chilmark, [508-]645-9270.
<BR>
<BR>best, christopher </FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:15:31 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 40 days
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-------------------------------1101687331
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In a message dated 11/28/2004 3:51:27 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Peter C. Josephs, 10 Guerin Lane, Chilmark, [508-]645-9270.
best, christopher
Instead of the Walking Dictionary, we have the Perambulating Phonebook.
Every day in every way, things get better and better.
Ralph
-------------------------------1101687331
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/28/2004 3:51:27 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>Peter C.=20
Josephs, 10 Guerin Lane, Chilmark, [508-]645-9270. <BR><BR>bes=
t,=20
christopher </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Instead of the Walking Dictionary, we have the Perambulating=20
Phonebook.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Every day in every way, things get better and better.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:22:52 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What farming?
In-Reply-To: <000601c4d5a2$6f2c02b0$6401a8c0@Leland>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
You mean down there where Yale is there's farm land too? I went through
there a few times but it was always at night, at least I think it was New
Haven. Is that on the way to NYC on 91? Ruth
At 6:31 PM -0500 11/28/04, Leland Torrence wrote:
>Yep... New Haven, CT... Although I and my mate Rob built a house in NHVT
>for an English bloke...
>Best,
>Leland
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:36:38 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 40 days
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Another, more real, reason to give thanks.
Twybil
-------------------------------1101699398
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
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e_document=20
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<DIV>Another, more real, reason to give thanks.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Twybil</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:16:14 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: What if Vitruvius went to Home Depot?
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Just a guess, but I bet the pilgrims et al would have thought that aluminum
as an exterior material was cool. So, how would they have used it?
Certainly not to imitate clapboard siding. Is one of the major problems with alum
siding that it painfully tries to imitate something else?
Christopher
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10>
<BR>Just a guess, but I bet the pilgrims et al would have thought that alumi=
num as an exterior material was cool. So, how would=20=
they have used it? Certainly not to imitate clapboard siding. &n=
bsp;Is one of the major problems with alum siding that it painfully tries to=
imitate something else?
<BR>
<BR>Christopher </FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:53:42 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Heritage Interpretation Services
Subject: Re: A note on cussing...
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A sad day, indeed.
True, everybody knows verandah is spelled with an "h".
TwybilSingh
Dear TwibilSingh,
You must have emigrated recently, or come from territory strongly =
affected by Queen Victoria's era.
((( My spellchecker rejected the "h" so I just assumed it was due to =
some Amaarakan mutation of the language and accepted it because I didn't =
want to arouse the critique pique of the literati assembled here. )))
However, just for the record, let's get our heritage facts straight. =
"Veranda" was the use in 1711 when the term first arrived in Europe from =
India. "Verandah" didn't enter into the language until 1879. So, as =
a preservationist, which one do you really choose to use?
cp in bc
("b" for before British)
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1476" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 bgColor=3D#ffffff leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 =
rightMargin=3D7>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT id=3Drole_document face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>A sad day, indeed.</DIV></FONT>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>True, everybody knows verandah is spelled with an "h".</DIV>
<DIV>TwybilSingh</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Dear TwibilSingh,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You must have emigrated recently, or come from territory strongly =
affected=20
by Queen Victoria's era.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>((( My spellchecker rejected the "h" so I just assumed it was due=20
to some Amaarakan mutation of the language and accepted it because =
I didn't=20
want to arouse the critique pique of the literati assembled here. =
)))</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, just for the record, let's get our heritage facts =
straight. =20
"Veranda" was the use in 1711 when the term first arrived in Europe from =
India. "Verandah" didn't enter into the language until=20
1879. So, as a preservationist, which one do you really =
choose to=20
use?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>cp in bc</DIV>
<DIV>("b" for before British)</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:52:24 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Leland Torrence <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What farming?
In-Reply-To: <a04310190bdd062429a78@[216.114.162.99]>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Ah...? ya! New Haven is on the way to New York.
Best,
Leland
-----Original Message-----
From: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ruth
Barton
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 12:23 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] What farming?
You mean down there where Yale is there's farm land too? I went through
there a few times but it was always at night, at least I think it was
New Haven. Is that on the way to NYC on 91? Ruth
At 6:31 PM -0500 11/28/04, Leland Torrence wrote:
>Yep... New Haven, CT... Although I and my mate Rob built a house in
>NHVT for an English bloke... Best,
>Leland
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:47:24 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gabriel Orgrease <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Seasonal Turkeys
In-Reply-To: <009c01c4d552$d4617d90$6401a8c0@Leland>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Leland Torrence wrote:
>We did a 42 last Sunday, but it went to a restaurant.
>
On T-day Kathy cooked a turkey in the oven & I barbecued & smoked one on
the grill.
It was raining and cold and the barbecue went on into dark and took me
about 4 hours.
Not even the dog wanted to stand outside with me.
Both turkeys came out real good eating.
Last night made soup out of the remains of the smoked one.
][<en
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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:47:42 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What if Vitruvius went to Home Depot?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-------------------------------1101728862
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In a message dated 11/28/2004 11:16:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Is one of the major problems with alum siding that it painfully tries to
imitate something else?
That and the fact that it's flimsy because it's so thin and that it conceals
deterioration of the material below it.
On the other hand, the big aluminum panels used in high rise and large scale
construction don;t lok so cheesy, so I think you're on to something. Is St
Francis College going to put aluminum siding up in Bklyn?
Ralph
-------------------------------1101728862
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/28/2004 11:16:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>Is one=20
of the major problems with alum siding that it painfully tries to imitate=20
something else? </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>That and the fact that it's flimsy because it's so thin and that i=
t=20
conceals deterioration of the material below it. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On the other hand, the big aluminum panels used in high rise and large=20
scale construction don;t lok so cheesy, so I think you're on to something.&n=
bsp;=20
Is St Francis College going to put aluminum siding up in Bklyn?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:55:32 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Pamela S. Follett" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Seasonal Turkeys
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hey, brother! Glad to hear you had turkey coming out of your ears rather
than not enough to eat. Of course, it doesn't help that I didn't let you
get to the BBQ until 4:30. Sorry about that!
- Pam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabriel Orgrease" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 06:47
Subject: [BP] Seasonal Turkeys
> Leland Torrence wrote:
>
> >We did a 42 last Sunday, but it went to a restaurant.
> >
> On T-day Kathy cooked a turkey in the oven & I barbecued & smoked one on
> the grill.
> It was raining and cold and the barbecue went on into dark and took me
> about 4 hours.
> Not even the dog wanted to stand outside with me.
> Both turkeys came out real good eating.
> Last night made soup out of the remains of the smoked one.
>
> ][<en
>
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
> <http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
>
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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:05:05 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: deb bledsoe <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ramada photos
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Hi John, (and all)
My aunt lived in Tucson and when I visited her in 2000, she explained
the ramada as being a structure that served as a trellis for vining
plants or straw. A ramada can be free standing; she had one in her back
yard. They kinda remind me of what we call a "picnic shelter" back east
here. At the Museum of the Desert there outside of Tucson, I saw one
attached to a building, that had hummingbirds nesting in it, and some
sort of trumpet vine, which they fed on, growing all over it.
On google search page, enter "ramada" in the search box, click on
"images" above the search box, wade thru endless pix of hotels etc, find
a few examples of a natural ramada, and some of dimensional lumber with
tin roofs.
Here are some search results:
http://www.icaap.org/UtopiaOnWheels/Ramada.jpg
http://www.missionsandiego.com/ramada2.jpg
http://digital.library.arizona.edu/jsw/3401/holy/ramada.jpg
best, from deb
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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:27:19 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Pamela S. Follett" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ramada photos
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Deb -
How does this differ then from a pergola?
- Pam
----- Original Message -----
From: "deb bledsoe" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 08:05
Subject: [BP] ramada photos
> Hi John, (and all)
>
> My aunt lived in Tucson and when I visited her in 2000, she explained
> the ramada as being a structure that served as a trellis for vining
> plants or straw. A ramada can be free standing; she had one in her back
> yard. They kinda remind me of what we call a "picnic shelter" back east
> here. At the Museum of the Desert there outside of Tucson, I saw one
> attached to a building, that had hummingbirds nesting in it, and some
> sort of trumpet vine, which they fed on, growing all over it.
>
> On google search page, enter "ramada" in the search box, click on
> "images" above the search box, wade thru endless pix of hotels etc, find
> a few examples of a natural ramada, and some of dimensional lumber with
> tin roofs.
>
> Here are some search results:
>
> http://www.icaap.org/UtopiaOnWheels/Ramada.jpg
> http://www.missionsandiego.com/ramada2.jpg
> http://digital.library.arizona.edu/jsw/3401/holy/ramada.jpg
>
> best, from deb
>
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
> <http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
>
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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:57:16 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Pam,
Pergolas are designery east coast and west coast arbors. Ramadas are lowtech vernacular Hispanic desert arbors.
Sukkahs are Wandering Jew arbors.
Or you could call them bowers.
Ralph
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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:10:25 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Pamela S. Follett" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
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----- Original Message -----=20
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 09:57
Subject: Re: [BP] ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
> Pam,
>=20
> Pergolas are designery east coast and west coast arbors. Ramadas are =
lowtech vernacular Hispanic desert arbors.
> Sukkahs are Wandering Jew arbors. Wandering especially on the =
balconies of many a Boro Park/(cripes, what's the name of that other =
B'lyn section starts with a W? where Ken lived for a while and it's next =
to GreenPoint) apartment. Thanks for the clarification.
>=20
> Or you could call them bowers.
>=20
> Ralph
>=20
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
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>
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To: <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT></A><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 =
09:57</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Subject: Re: [BP] ramada pergola sukkah =
arbor=20
bower</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><BR><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>> Pam,<BR>> <BR>> Pergolas are designery east coast =
and west=20
coast arbors. Ramadas are lowtech vernacular Hispanic desert=20
arbors.<BR>> Sukkahs are Wandering Jew arbors. <STRONG><FONT=20
color=3D#008080>Wandering especially on the balconies of many a Boro =
Park/(cripes,=20
what's the name of that other B'lyn section starts with a W? where Ken =
lived for=20
a while and it's next to GreenPoint) apartment. Thanks for the=20
clarification.</FONT></STRONG><BR>> <BR>> Or you could call them=20
bowers.<BR>> <BR>> Ralph<BR>> <BR>> --<BR>> To terminate =
puerile=20
preservation prattling among pals and the<BR>> uncoffee-ed, or to =
change your=20
settings, go to:<BR>> <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html"><=
FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html</=
FONT></A><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>><BR>> </FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:55:08 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Heritage Interpretation Services
Subject: Re: You say veranda(h), I say ramada
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We slept under a traditional ramada built by Papago Indians in our yard
while living at artist Ted Degrazia's compound outside of Tucson in =
1964-6.
We had two ramadii in the yard. Neither was attached to the adobe =
house.
Beautiful natural desert all around. Woke to coyotes walking past a =
few
yards away and California Quail sitting on the curly iron bed frame in =
the
morning. Woke in the ultimate dark to watch the great comet of 1965 =
that
stretched a quarter of the way across the perfect desert night sky out =
there
with no electric lights for many miles.
I had another ramada for a workshop, that one with walls of poles and a
swinging "door" of poles to "secure the contents" under the traditional
roof. The first commercial Sand-Cast Candles were invented, made and
distributed from there. Remember them?
Ramada =3D 4 poles (6") with forked tops, stuck upright in the ground. =
Two
major poles (4") rest in the forked pairs. Three minor poles (3") rest =
on
the first. Many many small poles (2") rest on top to provide the sun
shade. None were straighter than a coyotes path. Our 10' x 12' bed =
ramada
had one wall of Jasmine Vine for southern shade and friendly aroma.
I'll send you a photo when I dig it out this weekend. I never heard =
the
term ramada applied to a structure attached to a building, only to free
standing structures. Never saw one at a doorway. "In the dooryard" =
would
be a better description in my experience. My workshop ramada was like =
a
traditional desert home, with both enclosed and open sided portions, so
someone might describe the closed part as a "building" and the open part =
as
something different, especially if they were only looking at a photo, =
but
the reality was not so distinct, and the local natives called the whole
thing a ramada. As I learned the term from the Indians, it was the =
open
spaced pole roof for sun shading that defined the name. Anything with =
a
solid roof to shed winter wet weather was a "house".
cp in bc
> Speaking of "veranda," what about "ramada?" I've got a definition, but
what
> I need is a photo.
>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>We slept under=20
a traditional ramada built by Papago Indians in our yard<BR>while living =
at=20
artist Ted Degrazia's compound outside of Tucson in 1964-6.<BR>We had =
two=20
ramadii in the yard. Neither was attached to the adobe=20
house.<BR>Beautiful natural desert all around. Woke to =
coyotes=20
walking past a few<BR>yards away and California Quail sitting on the =
curly iron=20
bed frame in the<BR>morning. Woke in the ultimate dark to =
watch the=20
great comet of 1965 that<BR>stretched a quarter of the way across the =
perfect=20
desert night sky out there<BR>with no electric lights for many =
miles.<BR><BR>I=20
had another ramada for a workshop, that one with walls of poles and=20
a<BR>swinging "door" of poles to "secure the contents" under the=20
traditional<BR>roof. The first commercial Sand-Cast Candles =
were=20
invented, made and<BR>distributed from there. Remember=20
them?<BR><BR>Ramada =3D 4 poles (6") with forked tops, stuck upright in =
the=20
ground. Two<BR>major poles (4") rest in the forked =
pairs. =20
Three minor poles (3") rest on<BR>the first. Many many small =
poles=20
(2") rest on top to provide the sun<BR>shade. None were straighter =
than a=20
coyotes path. Our 10' x 12' bed ramada<BR>had one wall of Jasmine =
Vine for=20
southern shade and friendly aroma.<BR><BR>I'll send you a photo when I =
dig it=20
out this weekend. I never heard the<BR>term ramada applied =
to a=20
structure attached to a building, only to free<BR>standing=20
structures. Never saw one at a doorway. "In the=20
dooryard" would<BR>be a better description in my experience. =
My=20
workshop ramada was like a<BR>traditional desert home, with both =
enclosed and=20
open sided portions, so<BR>someone might describe the closed part as a=20
"building" and the open part as<BR>something different, especially if =
they were=20
only looking at a photo, but<BR>the reality was not so distinct, and the =
local=20
natives called the whole<BR>thing a ramada. As I learned the =
term=20
from the Indians, it was the open<BR>spaced pole roof for sun shading =
that=20
defined the name. Anything with a<BR>solid roof to shed =
winter wet=20
weather was a "house".<BR><BR>cp in bc<BR><BR>> Speaking of =
"veranda," what=20
about "ramada?" I've got a definition, but<BR>what<BR>> I need is a=20
photo.<BR>></FONT><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:02:32 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Pam,
The semi-Hebrew section of Brooklyn that starts with W is Williamsburgh. Not Colonial.
Ralph
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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:09:36 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Pamela S. Follett" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Bingo! I knew as soon as someone told me, I'd remember. Thanks, Ralph.
- Pam
----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 16:02
Subject: Re: [BP] ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
> Pam,
>
> The semi-Hebrew section of Brooklyn that starts with W is Williamsburgh.
Not Colonial.
>
> Ralph
>
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
> <http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
>
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:59:33 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: You say veranda(h), I say ramada
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101776373"
-------------------------------1101776373
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In a message dated 11/29/2004 3:58:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
We slept under a traditional ramada built by Papago Indians in our yard
John,
Go with experience. Listen to Cuyler.
Ralph
PS-- Sounds like sukkahs to me, especially the ones with sort-of walls..
-------------------------------1101776373
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/29/2004 3:58:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#=
000000=20
size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=
=3D3>We slept=20
under a traditional ramada built by Papago Indians in our=20
yard<BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>John,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Go with experience. Listen to Cuyler.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>PS-- Sounds like sukkahs to me, especially the ones with sort-of=20
walls..</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101776373--
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:29:34 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Energy saving
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Did anybody save the message about saving energy by preserving their old
buildings? If so could you please send it to me again?
A lady on one of my Alzheimer's disease lists is trying to convince the
"powers that be" to do just that. Apparently in her area, don't know where
she is, the govt owns the Nursing Homes and they want to tear down the two
and build one new one and she and some others are trying to convince them
otherwise. Thought I could send that info on to her to bolster their
argument but I find I did not save it. Thanks, Ruth
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:31:57 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
How come the thing roses grow on and the thing on the saw are both arbors?
Ruth
At 9:57 AM -0500 11/29/04, [log in to unmask] wrote:
>Pam,
>
>Pergolas are designery east coast and west coast arbors. Ramadas are
>lowtech vernacular Hispanic desert arbors.
>Sukkahs are Wandering Jew arbors.
>
>Or you could call them bowers.
>
>Ralph
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
--
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:32:55 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
If they are called bowers don't they have to have bums living in them? Ruth
At 9:57 AM -0500 11/29/04, [log in to unmask] wrote:
>Pam,
>
>Pergolas are designery east coast and west coast arbors. Ramadas are
>lowtech vernacular Hispanic desert arbors.
>Sukkahs are Wandering Jew arbors.
>
>Or you could call them bowers.
>
>Ralph
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
--
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uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:36:16 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101778576"
-------------------------------1101778576
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 11/29/2004 8:20:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
If they are called bowers don't they have to have bums living in them? Ruth
It's not required. One of my greatgrandmothers was a Bauer, and she wasn't
a bum.
Meanwhile I'll try to find you the mealymouthed histo presto argument. One
problem with the energy conservation argument is that uses requiring fairly
high tech services (like medical facilities) are not as good "fits" for old
buildings as are uses that don't require all that STUFF, and stuff which
periodically has to be repalced.
Years ago when I worked on the highrise (Meridian Plaza) office building in
Philadelphia that burned (but not completely), the owner's argued that his
ins co should pay him as if there had been a total loss, because what was left
of the bldg (which was maybe 20 years old at the time of the fire) was
technologically obsolete.
Ralph
-------------------------------1101778576
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/29/2004 8:20:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>If they=20
are called bowers don't they have to have bums living in them? =20
Ruth<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>It's not required. One of my greatgrandmothers was a Bauer, and s=
he=20
wasn't a bum.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Meanwhile I'll try to find you the mealymouthed histo presto=20
argument. One problem with the energy conservation argument is that us=
es=20
requiring fairly high tech services (like medical facilities) are not a=
s=20
good "fits" for old buildings as are uses that don't require all that STUFF,=
and=20
stuff which periodically has to be repalced. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Years ago when I worked on the highrise (Meridian Plaza) office=20
building in Philadelphia that burned (but not completely), the=20
owner's argued that his ins co should pay him as if there had been a to=
tal=20
loss, because what was left of the bldg (which was maybe 20 years=20=
old=20
at the time of the fire) was technologically obsolete. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101778576--
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To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:41:51 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Dan Becker <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
On 11/29/04 8:36 PM, "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Meanwhile I'll try to find you the mealymouthed histo presto argument.
I already forwarded it; save your energy for more useful things like humor
czaring.
> One
> problem with the energy conservation argument is that uses requiring fairly
> high tech services (like medical facilities) are not as good "fits" for old
> buildings as are uses that don't require all that STUFF, and stuff which
> periodically has to be repalced.
Hence standard number 1 in the Secretary of the Interiors Stnds. for
Rehabilitation about finding compatible uses. But that's not a problem with
the energy conservation argument. That's a problem with compatible use.
Dan
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:59:30 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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-------------------------------1101779970
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In a message dated 11/29/2004 8:42:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
already forwarded it; save your energy for more useful things like humor
czaring. I did, too. Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah.
> One
> problem with the energy conservation argument is that uses requiring fairly
> high tech services (like medical facilities) are not as good "fits" for old
> buildings as are uses that don't require all that STUFF, and stuff which
> periodically has to be repalced.
Hence standard number 1 in the Secretary of the Interiors Stnds. for
Rehabilitation about finding compatible uses. But that's not a problem with
the energy conservation argument. That's a problem with compatible use.
Uhhh, I was merely trying to prepare Ruth for an argument her friend might
stumble into. But we should definitely make a site visit and see these buildings
for ourselves. Who knows-- the world might be better off without them.
Dan
Ralph
-------------------------------1101779970
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/29/2004 8:42:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>already=20
forwarded it; save your energy for more useful things like humor<BR>czarin=
g.=20
<STRONG>I did, too. Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah.</STRONG><BR><BR>>=20
One<BR>> problem with the energy conservation argument is that uses=20
requiring fairly<BR>> high tech services (like medical facilities) are=20=
not=20
as good "fits" for old<BR>> buildings as are uses that don't require al=
l=20
that STUFF, and stuff which<BR>> periodically has to be=20
repalced.<BR><BR>Hence standard number 1 in the Secretary of the Interiors=
=20
Stnds. for<BR>Rehabilitation about finding compatible uses. But that's not=
a=20
problem with<BR>the energy conservation argument. That's a problem with=20
compatible use. <STRONG>Uhhh, I was merely trying to prepare Ruth for an=20
argument her friend might stumble into. But we should definitely mak=
e a=20
site visit and see these buildings for ourselves. Who knows-- the wo=
rld=20
might be better off without=20
them.</STRONG><BR><BR>Dan<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Ralph</STRONG></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101779970--
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:45:33 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Dan Becker <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What if Vitruvius went to Home Depot?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
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On 11/28/04 11:16 PM, "Met History" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Just a guess, but I bet the pilgrims et al would have thought that alumin=
um as
> an exterior material was cool. So, how would they have used it? Cert=
ainly
> not to imitate clapboard siding. Is one of the major problems with alum
> siding that it painfully tries to imitate something else?
From one of the original colonies where the pilgrims didn't land but a
colony of contemporaries managed to disappear, here's an old Q and A tract =
I
dredged out of musty files unused for years (it's kind of cute in an 80s
kind of way); the city's guidelines prohibited aluminum siding and
eventually the problem just went away. Folks quit applying for it, and the
sales people avoid the historic districts. So we haven't had to reprint thi=
s
in forever.
Aluminum and Synthetic Sidings in Historic Districts and on Historic
Landmarks
Question: Are aluminum siding and other synthetic siding materials
considered by most preservationists to be in character with historic
districts and landmarks?
Answer: No. The majority of architectural historians, preservation
professionals, and devotees of historic preservation across North Carolina
and the country are convinced that aluminum and other synthetic siding
materials are incongruous with the character of historic districts and
landmarks.
Question: Why?
Answer: There are a number of reasons involving technical problems and the
integrity of architectural character. North Carolina state enabling
legislation and the Raleigh city code define historic landmarks and
districts as buildings, structures, sites, areas, or objects found =B3to be o=
f
special significance in terms of [their] historical, prehistorical,
architectural, or cultural importance, and to possess integrity of design,
setting, workmanship, materials, feeling and/or association.=B2 These are als=
o
the qualities that distinguish entries on the National Register of Historic
Places. Since aluminum and synthetic sidings are materials that were
developed for widespread use only recently, their application to historic
buildings upsets integrity of design, workmanship, materials, and so on.
Question: But aluminum and other synthetic sidings can be made to look jus=
t
like the wooden clapboard on my historic house. Why can't I apply it and
retain the architectural integrity that makes it special?
Answer: Because wooden clapboard siding, just as any other historic
building material, possesses a richness of quality and texture developed
over the years that is impossible to manufacture in modern mass produced
material. This is especially true of wooden siding with special details
such as beading or in special arrangements such as board-and-batten siding
or German siding. Modern, mass produced aluminum or synthetic siding
imparts a hard, shiny surface to a building that is especially evident when
surrounded by the mellow richness of historic building materials.
Question: I'm not convinced that the hassle of maintaining the =B3mellow
richness=B2 of the historic wooden siding on my building is worth the effort.
What are some other preservation reasons to avoid aluminum or synthetic
sidings?
Answer: The application of aluminum or synthetic sidings covers the
historic fabric that makes a building special. It also destroys and damage=
s
historic fabric. Architectural details such as battens, window surrounds,
moldings, water tables, and the like often must be ripped off or severely
altered in order to apply the siding. Nails must be driven into the
original siding of the building in order to install the modern material.
Curved, molded, and cut-out details that give a building its historic
character cannot be economically duplicated in modern, mass produced
materials. If you ever want to sell the building, buyers who are intereste=
d
in buildings with architectural and historical flavor will avoid it.
Question: I don't care about maintaining the architectural or historical
integrity of my building. All I care about is ease of maintenance. So why
shouldn't I sheathe the building in modern materials?
Answer: A historic wooden building that is sheathed in aluminum or
synthetic siding not only loses its special character, it gains increased
vulnerability to deterioration caused by trapped moisture, undetected attac=
k
by wood boring insects, irreversible cracking in wooden historic fabric, an=
d
spalling of masonry walls. If a potential buyer of the property suspects
that the modern siding material is covering damaged materials underneath,
actual economic loss can occur for the property owner.
Question: Manufacturers claim aluminum and synthetic sidings save thousand=
s
of dollars on the cost of repainting every few years. Isn't that important
in these inflationary times?
Answer: If wooden clapboard and detailing is prepared and painted properly=
,
it doesn=B9t need to be painted =B3every few years.=B2 According to the United
States Department of Agriculture, a good paint job can last 8 to 10 years.
According to specialists at North Carolina State University, a good paint
job should last a minimum of 5 years and up to 15 years depending on the
paint and the climate. If siding is being applied only for the sake of
appearance, the property owner is really just buying an expensive paint job
since the finish on siding can fail as early as 7 years and certainly withi=
n
20 years. If one considers the facts that modern siding materials conceal
damage, that aluminum is prone to dents and scratches and is difficult to
replace in part, and that vinyl melts and buckles in the presence of a fire=
,
is subject to tears, and can shatter in extreme weather, the real cost of
these sidings far exceeds a sensible paint maintenance program. And
=B3instant credit=B2 financing incentives offered by some siding companies
feature high interest rates at low monthly payments over a long term, addin=
g
thousands of dollars to the actual cost of the siding.
Question: I can't keep paint on my historic building. What shall I do?
Answer: You need to determine the cause of the paint failure. There could
be any number of reasons ranging from primer failure, the type of wood you
are covering, the compatibility of old paint and new paint, and the surface
preparation techniques that have been used. Especially common are moisture
problems. Even the presence of blown-in wall insulation installed without =
a
vapor barrier on the interior surface of the wall has caused paint to peel.
When lead was removed from paint in the early 1970s, the quality of
durability dropped; however, new compositions and techniques of paint
manufacturing have solved this problem.
Question: Who can tell me why the paint is failing on my historic building
and help me make technical corrections?
Answer: The State Historic Preservation Office=B9s Restoration Branch, withi=
n
the North Carolina Division of Archives and History, employs restoration
specialists who are available free of charge to advise owners of historic
buildings. This office is located at 515 N. Blount Street and the phone
number is (919) 733-6547. The Raleigh Historic Districts Commission=B9s staf=
f
support [no longer] includes a preservation technician employed by the City
of Raleigh Planning Department [but still has other staff] who can also
help. The Commission=B9s office is [no longer] located in the Municipal
Building at 222 W. Hargett Street, Room 307, and the phone number is [still=
]
(919) 832-7238.
November 1982, revised February 1993.
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To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:03:16 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What if Vitruvius went to Home Depot?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="-----------------------------1101783796"
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In a message dated 11/29/2004 9:46:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
it's kind of cute in an 80s kind of way
Kinda cute, my ass. It's great!
Tony da Wood Siding Tiger
-------------------------------1101783796
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/29/2004 9:46:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>it's=20
kind of cute in an 80s kind of way</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kinda cute, my ass. It's great!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tony da Wood Siding Tiger</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101783796--
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:09:58 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What if Vitruvius went to Home Depot?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="part1_fd.7c09448.2edd68b6_boundary"
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Without reflection on the poster of the attached snip, the more I hear the=20
"Answer" the more it smells like preservationiac cant. Anyone else? =20
---Christopher =20
In a message dated 11/29/04 9:46:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:
> Question: Manufacturers claim aluminum and synthetic sidings save=20
> thousands
> of dollars on the cost of repainting every few years. Isn't that importan=
t
> in these inflationary times?
>=20
> Answer: If wooden clapboard and detailing is prepared and painted properl=
y,
> it doesn=B9t need to be painted =B3every few years.=B2 According to the U=
nited
> States Department of Agriculture, a good paint job can last 8 to 10 years.
> According to specialists at North Carolina State University, a good paint
> job should last a minimum of 5 years and up to 15 years depending on the
> paint and the climate. If siding is being applied only for the sake of
> appearance, the property owner is really just buying an expensive paint jo=
b
> since the finish on siding can fail as early as 7 years and certainly with=
in
> 20 years. If one considers the facts that modern siding materials conceal
> damage, that aluminum is prone to dents and scratches and is difficult to
> replace in part, and that vinyl melts and buckles in the presence of a fir=
e,
> is subject to tears, and can shatter in extreme weather, the real cost of
> these sidings far exceeds a sensible paint maintenance program. And
> =B3instant credit=B2 financing incentives offered by some siding companies
> feature high interest rates at low monthly payments over a long term, addi=
ng
> thousands of dollars to the actual cost of the siding.
--part1_fd.7c09448.2edd68b6_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Without reflection on the poster of=
the attached snip, the more I hear the "Answer" the more it smells like pre=
servationiac cant. Anyone else? ---Chris=
topher <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 11/29/04 9:46:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask]
RALEIGH.NC.US writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Question: Manufacturers c=
laim aluminum and synthetic sidings save thousands<BR>
of dollars on the cost of repainting every few years. Isn't that impor=
tant<BR>
in these inflationary times?<BR>
<BR>
Answer: If wooden clapboard and detailing is prepared and painted prop=
erly,<BR>
it doesn=B9t need to be painted =B3every few years.=B2 According to th=
e United<BR>
States Department of Agriculture, a good paint job can last 8 to 10 years.<B=
R>
According to specialists at North Carolina State University, a good paint<BR=
>
job should last a minimum of 5 years and up to 15 years depending on the<BR>
paint and the climate. If siding is being applied only for the sake of=
<BR>
appearance, the property owner is really just buying an expensive paint job<=
BR>
since the finish on siding can fail as early as 7 years and certainly within=
<BR>
20 years. If one considers the facts that modern siding materials conc=
eal<BR>
damage, that aluminum is prone to dents and scratches and is difficult to<BR=
>
replace in part, and that vinyl melts and buckles in the presence of a fire,=
<BR>
is subject to tears, and can shatter in extreme weather, the real cost of<BR=
>
these sidings far exceeds a sensible paint maintenance program. And<BR=
>
=B3instant credit=B2 financing incentives offered by some siding companies<B=
R>
feature high interest rates at low monthly payments over a long term, adding=
<BR>
thousands of dollars to the actual cost of the siding.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_fd.7c09448.2edd68b6_boundary--
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:17:15 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Department of the Inferior
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In a message dated 11/29/04 9:46:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> Question: But the new cast-iron of the 1860's can be made to look just
> like the stone of other mid-1850's commercial buildings. Why can't I use
> cast-iron and retain the architectural integrity that makes it special?
>
> Answer: Because real stone facades of the 1850's, just as any other
> historic building material, possesses a richness of quality and texture developed
> over the years that is impossible to manufacture in modern mass produced
> material, like James Bogardus' cast-iron. This is especially true of stone with
> special details such as tooling or chasing. Modern, mass produced cast-iron
> imparts a hard, opaque surface to a building that is especially evident when
> surrounded by the mellow richness of historic building materials. Also,
> bolts may rust away, and the cast iron may trap moisture inside, causing rot.
> If, say, the Soho area had been built of cast-iron buildings, they would
> certainly have fallen down by now.
--part1_b7.4beff87e.2edd6a6b_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 11/29/04 9:46:06=
PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Question: But the new cas=
t-iron of the 1860's can be made to look just like the stone of other mid-18=
50's commercial buildings. Why can't I use cast-iron and retain the ar=
chitectural integrity that makes it special?<BR>
<BR>
Answer: Because real stone facades of the 1850's, just as any other hi=
storic building material, possesses a richness of quality and texture develo=
ped over the years that is impossible to manufacture in modern mass produced=
material, like James Bogardus' cast-iron. This is especially true of&=
nbsp; stone with special details such as tooling or chasing. Mod=
ern, mass produced cast-iron imparts a hard, opaque surface to a building th=
at is especially evident when surrounded by the mellow richness of historic=20=
building materials. Also, bolts may rust away, and the cast iron=
may trap moisture inside, causing rot. If, say, the Soho area had bee=
n built of cast-iron buildings, they would certainly have fallen down by now=
.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:43:36 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: And just fyi Dr. Dan Expert, Naugahyde never needs painting!!!!!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="part1_e1.78a4ef4.2edd7098_boundary"
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Advertisement by United States Rubber Company, "A New Outlook on Living with
U. S. Naugahyde and U. S. Koylon Foam" -- Interiors Magazine, May 1960,
page 19:
"Henry End, A. I. D., of Miami, Florida, says 'I feel that Naugahyde
upholstery is at its best when used with natural materials. Classically designed,
beautifully crafted furniture upholstered with luxurious Naugahyde becomes new,
exciting and, most important, wonderfully liveable! Naugahyde, in its wide
range of patterns, textures and colors, is not only beautiful and unusual, but
amazingly durable and completely practical. A damp cloth keeps it clean. And
for the utmost in long-lasting comfort, I recommend Naugahyde tailored over
Koylon Foam cushioning.' "
--part1_e1.78a4ef4.2edd7098_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B><I>Advertisement by United States Rubber Company, "A New Outlook on=
Living with U. S. Naugahyde and U. S. Koylon Foam" -- Interiors=
Magazine, May 1960, page 19:</B></I><BR>
<BR>
"Henry End, A. I. D., of Miami, Florida, says 'I feel that Naugahyde upholst=
ery is at its best when used with natural materials. Classically=
designed, beautifully crafted furniture upholstered with luxurious Naugahyd=
e becomes new, exciting and, most important, wonderfully liveable! &nbs=
p; Naugahyde, in its wide range of patterns, textures and colors, is not onl=
y beautiful and unusual, but amazingly durable and completely practical.&nbs=
p; A damp cloth keeps it clean. And for the utmost in long-lasting com=
fort, I recommend Naugahyde tailored over Koylon Foam cushioning.' " <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_e1.78a4ef4.2edd7098_boundary--
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uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:26:00 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What if Vitruvius went to Home Depot?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101813960"
-------------------------------1101813960
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In a message dated 11/30/2004 1:10:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Without reflection on the poster of the attached snip, the more I hear the
"Answer" the more it smells like preservationiac cant. Anyone else?
---Christopher
Sir:
These sounds like good answers to me. What bothers you about them? Or, living
in the largely wood frame-free Bureau of Minhattin, have you just not seen
enough aluminum siding for it to give you agitta every time?
Ralph
-------------------------------1101813960
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/30/2004 1:10:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2><FONT=20
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 PTSIZE=3D"10"=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Without reflection on the poster of the attached snip=
, the=20
more I hear the "Answer" the more it smells like preservationiac=20
cant. Anyone else? ---Christopher =
;=20
</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Sir:</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000=
000=20
size=3D2><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 P=
TSIZE=3D"10"=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">These sounds like good answers to me.=20
</FONT></FONT></FONT>What bothers you about them? Or, living in the lar=
gely=20
wood frame-free Bureau of Minhattin, have you just not seen enough alum=
inum=20
siding for it to give you agitta every time?</DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101813960--
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uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:39:52 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101814792"
-------------------------------1101814792
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 11/30/2004 1:17:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Question: But the new cast-iron of the 1860's can be made to look just like
the stone of other mid-1850's commercial buildings. Why can't I use
cast-iron and retain the architectural integrity that makes it special?
Answer: Because real stone facades of the 1850's, just as any other
historic building material, possesses a richness of quality and texture developed
over the years that is impossible to manufacture in modern mass produced
material, like James Bogardus' cast-iron. This is especially true of stone with
special details such as tooling or chasing. Modern, mass produced cast-iron
imparts a hard, opaque surface to a building that is especially evident when
surrounded by the mellow richness of historic building materials. Also,
bolts may rust away, and the cast iron may trap moisture inside, causing rot.
If, say, the Soho area had been built of cast-iron buildings, they would
certainly have fallen down by now.
Cast iron isn't a micron (or 22 gauge) thick like aluminum siding. It also
is substantially more rust-resistant than steel, which is part of the reason
you see more 1850 buildings than 1950 cars. I would also pernt out that guys
like Robinson Iron frequently make replacement parts for CI buldings,
fountains, etc. out of cast aluminum, and nobody bitches about it.
I suspect part of the problem with aluminum is its thinness, or more
precisely lack of thickness, which enables you to do a Christo job on your house.
If one could get aluminum clapboards and window surrounds made to repalce
deteriorated wooden elements, rather than cladding them with tissue-thin formed
aluminum sheet, would we bitch? Then there's this godawful glossy white
plastic crap that everybody's making deck railings and trellises out of...
Ralph
-------------------------------1101814792
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/30/2004 1:17:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px sol=
id; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE">Question: But the new cast-iron of the 1860's can be m=
ade=20
to look just like the stone of other mid-1850's commercial buildings.&nb=
sp;=20
Why can't I use cast-iron and retain the architectural integrity that ma=
kes=20
it special?<BR><BR>Answer: Because real stone facades of the 1850'=
s,=20
just as any other historic building material, possesses a richness of=20
quality and texture developed over the years that is impossible to=20
manufacture in modern mass produced material, like James Bogardus'=20
cast-iron. This is especially true of stone with special det=
ails=20
such as tooling or chasing. Modern, mass produced cast-iron=20
imparts a hard, opaque surface to a building that is especially evident=20=
when=20
surrounded by the mellow richness of historic building=20
materials. Also, bolts may rust away, and the cast iron may=20=
trap=20
moisture inside, causing rot. If, say, the Soho area had been buil=
t of=20
cast-iron buildings, they would certainly have fallen down by=20
now.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Cast iron isn't a micron (or 22 gauge) thick like aluminum siding. It a=
lso=20
is substantially more rust-resistant than steel, which is part of the=20
reason you see more 1850 buildings than 1950 cars. I would also pernt=20=
out=20
that guys like Robinson Iron frequently make replacement parts for CI buldin=
gs,=20
fountains, etc. out of cast aluminum, and nobody bitches about it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I suspect part of the problem with aluminum is its thinness, or more=20
precisely lack of thickness, which enables you to do a Christo job on y=
our=20
house. If one could get aluminum clapboards and window surrounds =
made=20
to repalce deteriorated wooden elements, rather than cladding them with=20
tissue-thin formed aluminum sheet, would we bitch? Then there's t=
his=20
godawful glossy white plastic crap that everybody's making deck railings and=
=20
trellises out of... </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101814792--
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:07:59 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: You say veranda(h), I say ramada
In-Reply-To: <007e01c4d655$e82ddae0$5c2134d1@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Down in Brattleboro, the shopping town for this area, pop. about 9,000 on a
busy day, there is a park at the foot of the hill by the old railroad
station which is now a museum. A few years ago some fella built these
things out of slender tree branches. He wove them, I guess, somehow,
anyway they ended up looking like giant upside down bird nests. They were
sort of cool. This past summer there was some talk of removing them but I
don't go down there very often so don't know if they did or not. Ruth
At 12:55 PM -0800 11/29/04, Cuyler Page wrote:
We slept under a traditional ramada built by Papago Indians in our yard
while living at artist Ted Degrazia's compound outside of Tucson in 1964-6.
We had two ramadii in the yard. Neither was attached to the adobe house.
Beautiful natural desert all around. Woke to coyotes walking past a few
yards away and California Quail sitting on the curly iron bed frame in the
morning. Woke in the ultimate dark to watch the great comet of 1965 that
stretched a quarter of the way across the perfect desert night sky out there
with no electric lights for many miles.
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:05:58 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Pamela S. Follett" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Energy saving
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Ruth -
It should be on the archives, so you can look there and send it to the lady.
http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html
HTH
- Pam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ruth Barton" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 22:29
Subject: [BP] Energy saving
> Did anybody save the message about saving energy by preserving their old
> buildings? If so could you please send it to me again?
>
> A lady on one of my Alzheimer's disease lists is trying to convince the
> "powers that be" to do just that. Apparently in her area, don't know
where
> she is, the govt owns the Nursing Homes and they want to tear down the two
> and build one new one and she and some others are trying to convince them
> otherwise. Thought I could send that info on to her to bolster their
> argument but I find I did not save it. Thanks, Ruth
> --
> Ruth Barton
> [log in to unmask]
> Dummerston, VT
>
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
> uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
> <http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:07:47 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Pamela S. Follett" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C4D6B3.ADBAD850"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C4D6B3.ADBAD850
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original Message -----=20
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 20:36
Subject: Re: [BP] ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
In a message dated 11/29/2004 8:20:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, =
[log in to unmask] writes:
If they are called bowers don't they have to have bums living in =
them? Ruth
It's not required. One of my greatgrandmothers was a Bauer, and she =
wasn't a bum. Ralph - sometimes, you're just too literal for you own =
good. - Pam
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C4D6B3.ADBAD850
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1476" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 bgColor=3D#ffffff leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 =
rightMargin=3D7>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
[log in to unmask]
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BULLAMANKA-PINH=
[log in to unmask]</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 29, 2004 =
20:36</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [BP] ramada =
pergola sukkah=20
arbor bower</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=3Drole_document face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/29/2004 8:20:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, =
<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>If=20
they are called bowers don't they have to have bums living in =
them? =20
Ruth<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>It's not required. One of my greatgrandmothers was a Bauer, =
and she=20
wasn't a bum. <FONT color=3D#800080><STRONG>Ralph - sometimes, =
you're just=20
too literal for you own good. - Pam</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:10:17 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Pamela S. Follett" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: You say veranda(h), I say ramada
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I'm fond of Purim because of the yummy prune and apricot tri-corner =
cookies.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 19:59
Subject: Re: [BP] You say veranda(h), I say ramada
In a message dated 11/29/2004 3:58:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, =
[log in to unmask] writes:
We slept under a traditional ramada built by Papago Indians in our =
yard
John,
Go with experience. Listen to Cuyler.
Ralph
PS-- Sounds like sukkahs to me, especially the ones with sort-of =
walls..
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1476" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 bgColor=3D#ffffff leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 =
rightMargin=3D7>
<DIV>I'm fond of Purim because of the yummy prune and apricot =
tri-corner=20
cookies.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
[log in to unmask]
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BULLAMANKA-PINH=
[log in to unmask]</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 29, 2004 =
19:59</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [BP] You say =
veranda(h), I=20
say ramada</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=3Drole_document face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/29/2004 3:58:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, =
<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px =
solid"><FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3D"Times New Roman" =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>We slept=20
under a traditional ramada built by Papago Indians in our=20
yard<BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>John,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Go with experience. Listen to Cuyler.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>PS-- Sounds like sukkahs to me, especially the ones with sort-of=20
walls..</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:35:51 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
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In a message dated 11/30/04 6:40:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:
> Cast iron isn't a micron (or 22 gauge) thick like aluminum siding.
so, it isn't "aluminum siding" per se, it's just the thickness? so how thick
should it be? and, what if it doesn't strive to imitate wooden clapboard?
if all the preservationists in the world got together to design a "good"
aluminum exterior house covering, what would it look like? (i bet most wouldn't
show up "on principle")
can we really send a man to the moon but not develop a good, exterior
recladding material that breathes, "never needs painting", doesn't look like a crappy
imitation of something good, is reasonably replaceable, and is much less
expensive than the repainting involved with woodwork?
it is the fact that the preservation community has never even attempted to
grapple with such a question that makes me wonder about all the anti-siding
rhetoric.
sincerely, Pop Top
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 11/30/04 6:40:24=
AM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Cast iron isn't a micron (or 22=
gauge) thick like aluminum siding.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000=
00" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D1=
2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
><BR>
so, it isn't "aluminum siding" per se, it's just the thickness? so how=
thick should it be? and, what if it doesn't strive to imitate w=
ooden clapboard? <BR>
<BR>
if all the preservationists in the world got together to design a "good" alu=
minum exterior house covering, what would it look like? (i bet m=
ost wouldn't show up "on principle") <BR>
<BR>
can we really send a man to the moon but not develop a good, exterior reclad=
ding material that breathes, "never needs painting", doesn't look like a cra=
ppy imitation of something good, is reasonably replaceable, and is much less=
expensive than the repainting involved with woodwork? <BR>
<BR>
it is the fact that the preservation community has never even attempted to g=
rapple with such a question that makes me wonder about all the anti-siding r=
hetoric. <BR>
<BR>
sincerely, Pop Top </FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:41:36 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Rudy Christian <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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>>Cast iron isn't a micron (or 22 gauge) thick like aluminum siding. <<
During the black years before becoming a conservationteer we had a term
that went beyond amulinium cloaking to include Bruce plywood "flooring",
printed linoleum, vinyl soffits and a virtual plethora of reality
products. We just referred to them as 02thin gauge.
Never did learn how to shoot nails with a gun,
Rudy
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"
id=3D"role_document"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>>></span></font>Cast
iron isn't a micron (or 22 gauge) thick like aluminum siding. <font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><<<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>During the black years before =
becoming a <span
class=3DSpellE>conservationteer</span> we had a term that went beyond =
<span
class=3DSpellE>amulinium</span> cloaking to include Bruce plywood =
“flooring”,
printed linoleum, vinyl <span class=3DSpellE>soffits</span> and a =
virtual
plethora of reality products. We just referred to them as 02thin =
gauge.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Never did learn how to shoot nails =
with a
gun,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Rudy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:22:19 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gabriel Orgrease <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What if Vitruvius went to Home Depot?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Dan,
Is it OK if I repost this on PTN Live!
][<
>Aluminum and Synthetic Sidings in Historic Districts and on Historic
>Landmarks
>
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:29:50 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gabriel Orgrease <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Met History wrote:
> In a message dated 11/29/04 9:46:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
>> Question: But the new cast-iron of the 1860's can be made to look
>> just like the stone of other mid-1850's commercial buildings. Why
>> can't I use cast-iron and retain the architectural integrity that
>> makes it special?
>>
>> Answer: Because real stone facades of the 1850's, just as any other
>> historic building material, possesses a richness of quality and
>> texture developed over the years that is impossible to manufacture in
>> modern mass produced material, like James Bogardus' cast-iron. This
>> is especially true of stone with special details such as tooling or
>> chasing. Modern, mass produced cast-iron imparts a hard, opaque
>> surface to a building that is especially evident when surrounded by
>> the mellow richness of historic building materials. Also, bolts may
>> rust away, and the cast iron may trap moisture inside, causing rot.
>> If, say, the Soho area had been built of cast-iron buildings, they
>> would certainly have fallen down by now.
>
>
>
Sharpshooter,
LMAO!
Not fair... not fair... cast iron was not used by Bogardus as a faux
cladding over existing masonry or wood structures.
Which reminds me of once being asked to walnut shell blast a cast iron
facade in Soho and to only remove as much paint as would leave the
original first layers of paint. And yes, to make sure that not even a
teaspoon of walnut shells would get lodged in behind the cast iron,
between the ci & the rough brick back-up/infill lest the material
fester, rot and provide just one more micro-climate of deterioration in
a dark place.
][<
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:32:53 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gabriel Orgrease <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: And just fyi Dr. Dan Expert,
Naugahyde never needs painting!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
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Met History wrote:
>
> */Advertisement by United States Rubber Company, "A New Outlook on
> Living with U. S. Naugahyde and U. S. Koylon Foam" -- Interiors
> Magazine, May 1960, page 19:/*
>
> "Henry End, A. I. D., of Miami, Florida, says 'I feel that Naugahyde
> upholstery is at its best when used with natural materials.
> Classically designed, beautifully crafted furniture upholstered with
> luxurious Naugahyde becomes new, exciting and, most important,
> wonderfully liveable! Naugahyde, in its wide range of patterns,
> textures and colors, is not only beautiful and unusual, but amazingly
> durable and completely practical. A damp cloth keeps it clean. And
> for the utmost in long-lasting comfort, I recommend Naugahyde tailored
> over Koylon Foam cushioning.' "
>
>
>
Sharpshooter,
Sorry to ask, but need to know.
Can you fart on it and not leave a scent?
If it is scentless then I need to tell my bro who is recovering just
fine, we hope.
He and I have an ongoing debate re: the olfactory durability of various
forms of vehicular upholstery.
][<
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:32:36 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Cuyler Page <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Heritage Interpretation Services
Subject: CRC - the Term of the Day
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Today the computer spouted up a screen message from its black box belly =
that seems to be relevant to the current heritage recycling discussion.
"As a result of performing a Cyclical Redundancy Check it has been =
determined that you have become non functional."
SO, the term for today is:
"Cyclical Redundancy"
cp in bc
(redundant but not reluctant)
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Today the computer spouted up a screen =
message from=20
its black box belly that seems to be relevant to the current heritage =
recycling=20
discussion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>"As a result of performing a =
Cyclical=20
Redundancy Check it has been determined that you have become non=20
functional."</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>SO, the term for today is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Cyclical Redundancy"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>cp in bc</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(redundant but not=20
reluctant)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:36:44 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Met History <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: And just fyi Dr. Dan Expert,
Naugahyde never needs painting!!!!!
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In a message dated 11/30/2004 6:33:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Sorry to ask, but need to know.
Can you fart on it and not leave a scent?
depends on how damp the cloth is. and with what.
and, btw, thanks a lot for disrespecting my self-esteem by not asking to post
my Nauga-Submission on PTN. yrs, Foe Leather
-------------------------------1101857804
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/30/2004 6:33:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, orgreas=
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>Sorry to ask, but need to know.<BR>Can you far=
t on it and not leave a scent?</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">depends on how damp the cloth is. =20=
and with what.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">and, btw, thanks a lot for disrespecting=
my self-esteem by not asking to post my Nauga-Submission on PTN.  =
; yrs, Foe Leather </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101857804--
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:27:48 -0800
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ruth Barton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Energy saving
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks Pam and everybody else. I've sent it along to her. Ruth
At 8:05 AM -0500 11/30/04, Pamela S. Follett wrote:
>Ruth -
>
>It should be on the archives, so you can look there and send it to the lady.
>http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html
>HTH
>
>- Pam
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:05:15 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gabriel Orgrease <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Met History wrote:
>
> if all the preservationists in the world got together to design a
> "good" aluminum exterior house covering, what would it look like? (i
> bet most wouldn't show up "on principle")
Sharpshooter,
It would look like paint.
My surmise is that the most positive development along these lines is in
increasing the durability of breathable coatings that would eliminate
the presumed needs for residing.
Aluminum manufacture uses a lot of electricity... which puts people in
mind to build larger nuclear reactors in order to meet the demands of
progress.
There is a reason that Napolean had only one aluminum pot.
As to aluminum residing... there is a section of Brooklyn East of the
now fashionable Williamsburg that is melding from solid Italian to
yuppie artiste... the Italians were early converts to aluminum siding.
They put aluminum siding over the asphaltic faux brick (think 90 lb
roofing that looks like brick??) that was already nailed over the 19th
century wood detailing. If aluminum siding has been in place for more
than 30 years, and you count the layers of residing... is it then
historic? It is certainly, in this section of Brooklyn, a cultural
phenomena that records the movement of immigration and asssimilation.
There are a few buildings, very few here and there that retain the
original wood detailing, which is exquisite considering that this was
not wealthy housing. What interests me also is that the building
skeletons are a hybrid of masonry and timber frame... flat roof timber
framing with brick masonry fire walls dividing one from the other. I'm
not aware of anyone paying attention to study this built heritage. We
are going to be doing some restoration/investigation along these lines
if anyone wants pics or a crawl let me know.
David recently asked me while we were wandering around about why someone
did not invent such-and-such wonder product, this was the same day he
had the epiphany that on a large brick building that a human had touched
every brick at least once, and the only answer that I could give him was
that the chemistry and physics would simply not bend in that direction.
Let alone going to the moon is easy by comparison. Along other lines
Kathy made a comment that if in the Bible it had said that we are all
held down to the earth by strings with invisible elephants walking in
the earth beneath us that someone in Kentucky would be insisting that it
be taught in science class. So just now she suggests that someone
plaster the Midwest with billboards mentioning the Biblical prohibitions
against eating pork and see what happens.
Jerry Falwell & Al Sharpton (I love Al all the way back to Tawana) have
been showing up together on the TV a great deal lately. On Sunday on
Meet the Press Falwell -- who can burn in hell for al I care -- made a
comment about people that he had prayed for while in the shower that
morning... figure that... and so Kathy & I are talking about starting a
WEB business where we offer to NOT pray for you in the shower this
morning if only you will send us money.
And check out what gives with Bill Clinton as a runner for Secretary
General of the UN?
The best, though, that I've heard recently was from Twybil quoting a
friend (a cast ironer) of his when asked why he was so full of life and
libido, and this post-dating his friend having flown an airplane into
the side of a mountain and survived, "I figured out this ain't a dry run."
][<
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:19:52 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Gabriel Orgrease <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
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> I would also pernt out that guys like Robinson Iron frequently make
> replacement parts for CI buldings, fountains, etc. out of cast
> aluminum, and nobody bitches about it.
They may bitch but we may not hear them.
][<
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:42:21 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Leland Torrence <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: You say Brat and I say Boro
In-Reply-To: <a043101b9bdd1afbaf3a7@[216.114.162.99]>
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Ruth,
In the day, in southern Vermont, you could have your driver's silence
test in Springfield, Bennington on Wednesdays and Brattleboro (Brat) and
Rutland on Mondays and Fridays. I failed my first test in Brattleboro
because the emergency break didn't hold on a hill. As for fame in Brat,
I believe William Morris Hunt hails from there and there are a few major
Parlor Piano makers as well. The Godfather to my eldest son lived in
Brat and he had a lover that killed the mayor in the sixties... Luv
triangle... Remember that?
Best,
Leland
-----Original Message-----
From: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ruth
Barton
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 12:08 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] You say veranda(h), I say ramada
Down in Brattleboro, the shopping town for this area, pop. about 9,000
on a busy day, there is a park at the foot of the hill by the old
railroad station which is now a museum. A few years ago some fella
built these things out of slender tree branches. He wove them, I guess,
somehow, anyway they ended up looking like giant upside down bird nests.
They were sort of cool. This past summer there was some talk of
removing them but I don't go down there very often so don't know if they
did or not. Ruth
At 12:55 PM -0800 11/29/04, Cuyler Page wrote:
We slept under a traditional ramada built by Papago Indians in our yard
while living at artist Ted Degrazia's compound outside of Tucson in
1964-6.
We had two ramadii in the yard. Neither was attached to the adobe
house.
Beautiful natural desert all around. Woke to coyotes walking past a
few
yards away and California Quail sitting on the curly iron bed frame in
the
morning. Woke in the ultimate dark to watch the great comet of 1965
that
stretched a quarter of the way across the perfect desert night sky out
there with no electric lights for many miles.
--
Ruth Barton
[log in to unmask]
Dummerston, VT
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:10:39 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101863439"
-------------------------------1101863439
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 11/30/2004 4:10:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Along other lines
Kathy made a comment that if in the Bible it had said that we are all
held down to the earth by strings with invisible elephants walking in
the earth beneath us that someone in Kentucky would be insisting that it
be taught in science class. So just now she suggests that someone
plaster the Midwest with billboards mentioning the Biblical prohibitions
against eating pork and see what happens.
(with apologies to my new home state)
OK... so everytime I drive I-71 South to my brother's house I drive past a
homemade billboard sign asking "Where will you be for Eternity?" (the "E" picked
out in hellfire red.)
And my thought response each time-- "Hopefully not here. Can't get a decent
slice of pizza."
'Nuff said. (Although the brats almost make up for it.)
-Heidi
-------------------------------1101863439
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type charset=3DUS-ASCII content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/30/2004 4:10:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, orgreas=
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>Along other lines<BR>Kathy made a comment that=
if in the Bible it had said that we are all<BR>held down to the earth by st=
rings with invisible elephants walking in<BR>the earth beneath us that someo=
ne in Kentucky would be insisting that it<BR>be taught in science class. So=20=
just now she suggests that someone<BR>plaster the Midwest with billboards me=
ntioning the Biblical prohibitions<BR>against eating pork and see what happe=
ns.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>(with apologies to my new home state)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>OK... so everytime I drive I-71 South to my brother's house I drive pas=
t a homemade billboard sign asking "Where will you be for Eternity?" (the "E=
" picked out in hellfire red.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And my thought response each time-- "Hopefully not here. Can't get a de=
cent slice of pizza."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>'Nuff said. (Although the brats almost make up for it.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-Heidi</DIV></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101863439--
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:43:28 -0600
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Callan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619)
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First of all, there's a WHOLE LOT of Blue MIDWEST! And you elite
eastern LIBERALS can't afford to offend just whomsoever you damn well
please anymore!
Second, I think raising the battle cry to prohibit the sale, posession
and consumption of pork might have some unintended consequences. These
folks are scary enough, don't give them another reason to go snooping
through my house. One group wants to regulate my bedroom, the other
wants to regulate my gun closet, another is offended because I don't
have a gun closet and I've got vertually no control over what goes into
the regridgerator, but I sure as hell don't want the bible telling me
what I can put in my refridgerator, or someone will decide I shouldn't
have a refrigerator, or a telephone, or electricity, or insulation, or
pavement, or plumbing...or the ballot.
You know, there was a time when only priests and noble folks read the
bible...now that has promise!
-jc
On Nov 30, 2004, at 7:10 PM, [log in to unmask] wrote:
> o just now she suggests that someone
> plaster the Midwest with billboards mentioning the Biblical
> prohibitions
> against eating pork and see what happens.
--Apple-Mail-30--995843346
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charset=US-ASCII
First of all, there's a WHOLE LOT of Blue MIDWEST! And you elite
eastern LIBERALS can't afford to offend just whomsoever you damn well
please anymore!
Second, I think raising the battle cry to prohibit the sale, posession
and consumption of pork might have some unintended consequences.
These folks are scary enough, don't give them another reason to go
snooping through my house. One group wants to regulate my bedroom,
the other wants to regulate my gun closet, another is offended because
I don't have a gun closet and I've got vertually no control over what
goes into the regridgerator, but I sure as hell don't want the bible
telling me what I can put in my refridgerator, or someone will decide
I shouldn't have a refrigerator, or a telephone, or electricity, or
insulation, or pavement, or plumbing...or the ballot.
You know, there was a time when only priests and noble folks read the
bible...now that has promise!
-jc
On Nov 30, 2004, at 7:10 PM, [log in to unmask] wrote:
<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-smaller>o just now she
suggests that someone</x-tad-smaller></fontfamily>
<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-smaller>plaster the Midwest
with billboards mentioning the Biblical prohibitions</x-tad-smaller></fontfamily>
<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-smaller>against eating pork and
see what happens.</x-tad-smaller></fontfamily></excerpt>
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:16:30 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Lisa Sasser <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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I spent yesterday afternoon at the Art Deco exhibition at the Museum of Fine
Arts in Boston with my parents. It was something of a revelation to see
jaw-droppingly beautiful architectural elements like elevator grilles done
in cast aluminum, gilded, faux painted, and patinated in unbelievable
splendor from the 1920s.
The "pyramydion" that topped the Washington Monument when it was finally
completed in the last half of the 19th century was cast aluminum. Back then
it was one of the rarest metals on earth.
BTW, go see the Art Deco show in Boston if you get a chance, I think it runs
through the end of January. My parents (respectively 85 and 78) drove all
the way from Texas to see it. I guess they didn't mind seeing me either.
We enjoyed a free range chicken for Thanksgiving dinner (since no one was
quite up to a behemoth turkey), home grown potatoes, and all the trimmings.
We had enough chicken left over to make cockaleekie the next day. I'm not
sure what that is, but it tasted good, and it was kind of fun to say it.
Chicken pot pie by any other name . . .
Cheers,
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gabriel
Orgrease
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] Department of the Inferior
> I would also pernt out that guys like Robinson Iron frequently make
> replacement parts for CI buldings, fountains, etc. out of cast
> aluminum, and nobody bitches about it.
They may bitch but we may not hear them.
][<
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:11:42 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What if Vitruvius went to Home Depot?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sure, with credit to Raleigh Historic Districts Commission.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gabriel Orgrease [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 6:22 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [BP] What if Vitruvius went to Home Depot?
>=20
>=20
> Dan,
>=20
> Is it OK if I repost this on PTN Live!
>=20
> ][<
>=20
>=20
> >Aluminum and Synthetic Sidings in Historic Districts and on Historic=20
> >Landmarks
> >
>=20
> --
> To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and=20
> the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: >
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamank> a-pinheads.html>
>=20
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:20:32 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ramada pergola sukkah arbor bower
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-------------------------------1101871232
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In a message dated 11/30/2004 7:56:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
It's not required. One of my greatgrandmothers was a Bauer, and she wasn't
a bum. Ralph - sometimes, you're just too literal for you own good. - Pam
Sometimes? That's the most benefit of the doubt I've been given in a long
time.
Ralph
-------------------------------1101871232
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/30/2004 7:56:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>
<DIV>It's not required. One of my greatgrandmothers was a Bauer, and=
she=20
wasn't a bum. <FONT color=3D#800080><STRONG>Ralph - sometimes, you'r=
e just=20
too literal for you own good. -=20
Pam</STRONG></FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Sometimes? That's the most benefit of the doubt I've been given i=
n a=20
long time.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101871232--
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:21:54 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: You say veranda(h), I say ramada
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="-----------------------------1101871314"
-------------------------------1101871314
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In a message dated 11/30/2004 7:58:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
I'm fond of Purim because of the yummy prune and apricot tri-corner cookies.
These are called Hamantaschen (Haman's pockets). Try the poppyseed.
Ralph
-------------------------------1101871314
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/30/2004 7:58:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>
<DIV>I'm fond of Purim because of the yummy prune and apricot tri-cor=
ner=20
cookies.</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>These are called Hamantaschen (Haman's pockets). Try the=20
poppyseed.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101871314--
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:22:10 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What if Vitruvius went to Home Depot?
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Well, consider that it was written by my predecessor in 1982, when the =
country was in fact experiencing inflationary times. And paint jobs last =
longer now thanks to the advances in coating technology. When they are =
done right.
=20
So in fact, it's a pretty conservative answer.
=20
Preservationiac Kant.
-----Original Message-----
From: Met History [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 1:10 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] What if Vitruvius went to Home Depot?
Without reflection on the poster of the attached snip, the more I hear =
the "Answer" the more it smells like preservationiac cant. Anyone =
else? ---Christopher =20
In a message dated 11/29/04 9:46:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, =
[log in to unmask] writes:
Question: Manufacturers claim aluminum and synthetic sidings save =
thousands
of dollars on the cost of repainting every few years. Isn't that =
important
in these inflationary times?
Answer: If wooden clapboard and detailing is prepared and painted =
properly,
it doesn=B9t need to be painted =B3every few years.=B2 According to the =
United
States Department of Agriculture, a good paint job can last 8 to 10 =
years.
According to specialists at North Carolina State University, a good =
paint
job should last a minimum of 5 years and up to 15 years depending on the
paint and the climate. If siding is being applied only for the sake of
appearance, the property owner is really just buying an expensive paint =
job
since the finish on siding can fail as early as 7 years and certainly =
within
20 years. If one considers the facts that modern siding materials =
conceal
damage, that aluminum is prone to dents and scratches and is difficult =
to
replace in part, and that vinyl melts and buckles in the presence of a =
fire,
is subject to tears, and can shatter in extreme weather, the real cost =
of
these sidings far exceeds a sensible paint maintenance program. And
=B3instant credit=B2 financing incentives offered by some siding =
companies
feature high interest rates at low monthly payments over a long term, =
adding
thousands of dollars to the actual cost of the siding.
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D247181903-01122004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Well,=20
consider that it was written by my predecessor in 1982, when the country =
was in=20
fact experiencing inflationary times. And paint jobs last longer now =
thanks to=20
the advances in coating technology. When they are done=20
right.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D247181903-01122004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D247181903-01122004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>So in=20
fact, it's a pretty conservative answer.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D247181903-01122004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D247181903-01122004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Preservationiac Kant.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Met =
History=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 30, =
2004 1:10=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
Re: [BP] What if Vitruvius went to Home =
Depot?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT=20
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"=20
PTSIZE=3D"10">Without reflection on the poster of the attached snip, =
the more I=20
hear the "Answer" the more it smells like preservationiac=20
cant. Anyone else? =
---Christopher =20
<BR><BR><BR>In a message dated 11/29/04 9:46:06 PM Eastern Standard =
Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE">Question: Manufacturers claim aluminum and =
synthetic=20
sidings save thousands<BR>of dollars on the cost of repainting every =
few=20
years. Isn't that important<BR>in these inflationary=20
times?<BR><BR>Answer: If wooden clapboard and detailing is =
prepared=20
and painted properly,<BR>it doesn=B9t need to be painted =B3every =
few=20
years.=B2 According to the United<BR>States Department of =
Agriculture, a=20
good paint job can last 8 to 10 years.<BR>According to specialists =
at North=20
Carolina State University, a good paint<BR>job should last a minimum =
of 5=20
years and up to 15 years depending on the<BR>paint and the =
climate. If=20
siding is being applied only for the sake of<BR>appearance, the =
property=20
owner is really just buying an expensive paint job<BR>since the =
finish on=20
siding can fail as early as 7 years and certainly within<BR>20 =
years. =20
If one considers the facts that modern siding materials =
conceal<BR>damage,=20
that aluminum is prone to dents and scratches and is difficult =
to<BR>replace=20
in part, and that vinyl melts and buckles in the presence of a =
fire,<BR>is=20
subject to tears, and can shatter in extreme weather, the real cost=20
of<BR>these sidings far exceeds a sensible paint maintenance =
program. =20
And<BR>=B3instant credit=B2 financing incentives offered by some =
siding=20
companies<BR>feature high interest rates at low monthly payments =
over a long=20
term, adding<BR>thousands of dollars to the actual cost of the=20
siding.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C4D754.F1AF3B11--
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:32:00 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
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Authenticity. It is what it is. It ain't covering up what was. And what
about those wood modillion blocks under the eave of your Greek Revival
frame house? They're trying to imitate the stone order!=20
=20
Imitation. The sincerest form of flattery.
=20
It's just that aluminum siding over the original wood isn't imitation.
It's a bad charade.
-----Original Message-----
From: Met History [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 1:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [BP] Department of the Inferior
In a message dated 11/29/04 9:46:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Question: But the new cast-iron of the 1860's can be made to look just
like the stone of other mid-1850's commercial buildings. Why can't I
use cast-iron and retain the architectural integrity that makes it
special?
Answer: Because real stone facades of the 1850's, just as any other
historic building material, possesses a richness of quality and texture
developed over the years that is impossible to manufacture in modern
mass produced material, like James Bogardus' cast-iron. This is
especially true of stone with special details such as tooling or
chasing. Modern, mass produced cast-iron imparts a hard, opaque
surface to a building that is especially evident when surrounded by the
mellow richness of historic building materials. Also, bolts may rust
away, and the cast iron may trap moisture inside, causing rot. If, say,
the Soho area had been built of cast-iron buildings, they would
certainly have fallen down by now.
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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D917192203-01122004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Authenticity. It is what it is. It ain't covering up what was. =
And what=20
about those wood modillion blocks under the eave of your Greek Revival =
frame=20
house? They're trying to imitate the stone order! </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D917192203-01122004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D917192203-01122004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Imitation. The sincerest form of flattery.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D917192203-01122004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D917192203-01122004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>It's=20
just that aluminum siding over the original wood isn't imitation. It's a =
bad=20
charade.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Met =
History=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 30, =
2004 1:17=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
[BP] Department of the Inferior<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT=20
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"=20
PTSIZE=3D"10">In a message dated 11/29/04 9:46:06 PM Eastern Standard =
Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE">Question: But the new cast-iron of the 1860's can =
be made=20
to look just like the stone of other mid-1850's commercial =
buildings. =20
Why can't I use cast-iron and retain the architectural integrity =
that makes=20
it special?<BR><BR>Answer: Because real stone facades of the =
1850's,=20
just as any other historic building material, possesses a richness =
of=20
quality and texture developed over the years that is impossible to=20
manufacture in modern mass produced material, like James Bogardus'=20
cast-iron. This is especially true of stone with special =
details=20
such as tooling or chasing. Modern, mass produced =
cast-iron=20
imparts a hard, opaque surface to a building that is especially =
evident when=20
surrounded by the mellow richness of historic building=20
materials. Also, bolts may rust away, and the cast iron =
may trap=20
moisture inside, causing rot. If, say, the Soho area had been =
built of=20
cast-iron buildings, they would certainly have fallen down by=20
now.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C4D756.517D31A7--
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 03:12:54 +0000
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Frank J. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?UGF4aWwgLSA3NSUgT0ZG?=
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------=_NextPart_000_0000_46A68590.8C72BD8E--
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:42:12 -0500
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Becker, Dan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Met History [mailto:[log in to unmask]]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:36 AM
>=20
>=20
> can we really send a man to the moon but not develop a good,=20
> exterior recladding material that breathes, "never needs=20
> painting", doesn't look like a crappy imitation of something=20
> good, is reasonably replaceable, and is much less expensive=20
> than the repainting involved with woodwork? =20
I don't know. Maybe we could. All I know is that it isn't aluminum
siding. I don't think it's Alvis Spray-on Siding either. Ask that other
preservationiac, Mike Edison.=20
> it is the fact that the preservation community has never even=20
> attempted to grapple with such a question that makes me=20
> wonder about all the anti-siding rhetoric.
Oh. Forget my previous paragraph. The commission once approved aluminum
siding in the historic district to be applied over wood. This was done
after the guidelines prohibiting aluminum siding were put in place. It
was an after-the-fact case where the little old lady on a fixed income
got sold a bill of goods and they put it up on her house, and then the
neighbors called about it, and we had to drag her in front of the firing
squad. I helped her research the fact that on her late '50s infill brick
ranchero with the wooden gable ends that she covered in aluminum siding,
that aluminum siding could in fact be shown to be a "not incongruous"
(double negative language of our state statutes, sorry, gotta use it)
because aluminum siding was in production then and was in fact being
used as the original siding for that style of dwelling.
In the face of such evidence during the quasi-judicial hearing, the
commission approved the application.
Authenticity. Integrity. Hmmmm. What to do now?
Mr. Reasonable=20
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:49:54 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Department of the Inferior
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="-----------------------------1101872994"
-------------------------------1101872994
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 11/30/2004 6:30:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Not fair... not fair... cast iron was not used by Bogardus as a faux
cladding over existing masonry or wood structures. I didn't remember that
they were existing bldgs that got cladded, but the rt. hon distinguished
gentleman from the Guyland has a pernt. What's the difference between fake stone
made from CI, or fake wood made from nulunimum? One's old and the other's
new? One's 1/4" thick and the other 22 gauge? Neither one's worth a shit in
a fire. I'll still take cast iron. Then again, why did the Romans invent
concrete if not as a substitute for natural stone? I still say aluminum siding
is shit, and I say the hell with it.
Which reminds me of once being asked Let me guess WHO might have made this
request....to walnut shell blast a cast iron facade in Soho and to only remove
as much paint as would leave the original first layers of paint. On second
thought, it must have been somebody else. And yes, to make sure that not even
a
teaspoon of walnut shells would get lodged in behind the cast iron, between
the ci & the rough brick back-up/infill lest the material fester, rot and
provide just one more micro-climate of deterioration in a dark place. Then
again, there's something impossibly anal about this, so maybe I was right to
begin with. I'll be most interested to find out.
Ralph
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<DIV>In a message dated 11/30/2004 6:30:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>Not=20
fair... not fair... cast iron was not used by Bogardus as a faux<BR>claddi=
ng=20
over existing masonry or wood structures. <STRONG>I didn't remember=20=
that=20
they were existing bldgs that got cladded, but the rt. hon distinguished=20
gentleman from the Guyland has a pernt. What's the difference=20
between fake stone made from CI, or fake wood made from nulunimum? O=
ne's=20
old and the other's new? One's 1/4" thick and the other 22 gauge?&nb=
sp;=20
Neither one's worth a shit in a fire. I'll still take cast=20
iron. Then again, why did the Romans invent concrete if not as=20=
a=20
substitute for natural stone? I still say aluminum siding is shi=
t,=20
and I say the hell with it.</STRONG><BR><BR>Which reminds me of once being=
=20
asked <STRONG>Let me guess WHO might have made this request....</STRONG>to=
=20
walnut shell blast a cast iron facade in Soho and to only remove as much p=
aint=20
as would leave the original first layers of paint. <STRONG>On second thoug=
ht,=20
it must have been somebody else.</STRONG> And yes, to make sure that=20=
not=20
even a<BR>teaspoon of walnut shells would get lodged in behind the cast ir=
on,=20
between the ci & the rough brick back-up/infill lest the material fest=
er,=20
rot and provide just one more micro-climate of deterioration in a dark=20
place. <STRONG>Then again, there's something impossibly anal about t=
his,=20
so maybe I was right to begin with. I'll be most interested to find=20
out.</STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><STRONG>Ralph</STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2><BR></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101872994--
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To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:54:14 EST
Reply-To: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Pre-patinated plastic gumby block w/ coin slot
<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: And just fyi Dr. Dan Expert,
Naugahyde never needs painting!!!!!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 11/30/2004 6:33:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Sorry to ask, but need to know.
Can you fart on it and not leave a scent? I should think a glossier
synthetic material would be less absorbent than a natural, or a less glossy
synthetic, one.
If it is scentless then I need to tell my bro who is recovering just
fine, we hope.
He and I have an ongoing debate re: the olfactory durability of various
forms of vehicular upholstery. You should do some tests. Just let the rest
of us know ahead of time, will ya? Meanwhile, I'll look into the ASTM
standards for retention by automotive upholstery of methane and partially-digested
food byproducts.
Ralph
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/30/2004 6:33:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>Sorry to=20
ask, but need to know.<BR>Can you fart on it and not leave a scent? <STRON=
G>I=20
should think a glossier synthetic material would be less absorbent than a=20
natural, or a less glossy synthetic, one. </STRONG><BR>If it is=20
scentless then I need to tell my bro who is recovering just<BR>fine, we=20
hope.<BR>He and I have an ongoing debate re: the olfactory durability of=20
various<BR>forms of vehicular upholstery. <STRONG>You should do some=20
tests. Just let the rest of us know ahead of time, will ya? =20
Meanwhile, I'll look into the ASTM standards for retention by automot=
ive=20
upholstery of methane and partially-digested food=20
byproducts. </STRONG><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1101873254--
--
To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the
uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to:
<http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>